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Hey, I don't know if any of you guys dabble in trying to race yourself in your own cars...but if some of you do you'd know what I'm talking about.

If you guys watch Fourth Stage, or even the first or second stages, Takumi's shift technique is a little bit weird don't you think? For instance, he's in fourth gear approaching a second gear turn, he does his customary heel and toe shifting, but notice what he does...he takes the shifter from fourth to third, then immediately to second then goes through with the turn.

I understand this technique, it's to keep the car in the powerband longer, but this doesn't make any sense. For instance, you're approaching the turn, if you're going to shift from fourth to third, you have to let go of the clutch and engage the engine for it to 'powerburst' in the power band, then heel and toe AGAIN to get from third to second. Otherwise, you're just going through the motions, since even if you shift to the third gear, if you don't let the clutch out it's not engaging the engine.

Now notice the race in Fourth Stage with Ninomiya's Ek9, on one of the turns (I believe this is when he's overtaking him, and it all goes in slow motion...) Takumi takes it from fourth to third, then from third to second, but he does this too fast to let the clutch out...so, we can assume he doesn't engage the engine in third gear...so why's he doing it? Wouldn't it be faster and more economical to just quickly go from fourth to second? By the way I anticipate the answer that 'it'll rev too high' if you go from fourth to second, but it won't if you think about it, since he's not engaging the third gear the revs are dropping anyhow and he's already braking hard.

I don't think this should be in the 'technical' section cuz...I mean, it's a question about an ID character's tendencies...

Lataz

All I know is that Keiichi Tsuchiya is the technical advisor on Initial D. I think that from many Best Motoring videos I have seen him do that. As a mechanical engineer student, I think it helps the transmision shyncros to keep a better life.

ahhh, yes, it could be longevity...I don't much about how synchros 'wear', I mean I know what they do but if you're not engaging the third gear, how is it any different from just going straight to second gear?

Well it realy helps to under stand how heel-toeing works

"you have to let go of the clutch and engage the engine for it to 'powerburst' in the power band"

Actually, you dont. You want to raise the revs BEFORE you release the clutch- this is the point of rev matching.

You can release the clutch almost instantly once you develope a "smoothness". So as soon as that stick is in the next gear- you could already be off the clutch. You could probably start to release it before you even have the gear fully selected, because clutches dont grab right away. Often you need to bring them up about half to 3/4s of the way for them to "grab".

Heel-toeing doesnt help with synchros, i used to think that too but thats not the case. Youd have to double clutch while heel-toeing to that.

Heel-toeing lets you Brake, revmatch, and down shift pretty much all at the same time.

as for the situation your talking about, i dont think that happened (animated that way or not) Itd be beter to go down through the gears, rather then skip one.

Added: I shoudl add this.. in case something something happened like that.. just think about it. He wouldnt save any time by going from 4th to 2nd, then if he went from 4th to 3rd to 2nd. He may get the stick there faster- BUT youd still have to wait for the car to be going the right speed for that gear, then youd need to raise the revs for that gear at that speed before you could release the clutch. its just easier to think about going from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, then 4th to 2nd.

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 21 2004, 04:14 PM

Also by going from 4th to 3rd to 2nd instead of 4th to 2nd lowers your chances of over-reving your engine into oblivion or blowing something in your tranny. Friend accidentally downshifted from 5th to 3rd when he wanted to downshift to 4th and we both swore his engine was gonna blow.

i read on howstuff works that it messes up your tranny if you skip a gear, might be wrong but who knows....maybe hes just so freaking quick with the shifter he can do it all in one heel and toe...remember how tomo said his ger changing skills are incredible in 4th stage...

He jsut meant he could shift perfectly- perfect rev matching, perfect gear selection for the turn speed and keeping it well within its rev range.

Rake

how the CRAP did he go from 5th to 3rd 4th is... middle down... 3rd is.. middle up... and 5th is upper right (usually).. soudns like a bad driver lol.

Anyways about this gear changing thing:

You can go down from any gear, to any gear. You could go from 5th to 1st. >IF< You slow down to the right speed, and raise the revs properly for that speed.

Youd have to lower your speed to AT LEAST what the maximum speed in 1st could do. Then youd have to raise the revs properly.

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 21 2004, 04:42 PM

lol yeah I was wondering how he went from 5th to 3rd when he was trying to get 4th.

Ive seen people go from like... 5th to 2nd, and 4th to first. but never 5th to 3rd... maybe it was a 6-speed, and he went from 6th to 3rd? *shrugs*

oo ok, thanks for clearing that up, so its basicly easier to go down in order

but wouldnt it be kinda pointless to go 4th to 3rd to 2nd when you could just go from 4th to 2nd

Sort of: but not really. We are "human" after all. If you went right from 4th to 2nd youd have to wait as i said. If you went from 4th to 3rd, then 3rd to 2nd.. you wouldnt have to wait. You just dont have to try as hard to time things

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 21 2004, 04:58 PM

First off going from 4-3-2 is easier for timing reasons but also Takumi has this on-the-spot type of sense so if you goes one gear at a time he can instaneously react and not have to go to the right gear if he sees an opportunity for passing or getting a better line etc.

thewird

Actually he was driving his AE86 Corolla GT-S. The guy claims he wasn't paying any attention but me and the rest of my friends are shakey driving with him in the first place. Everyone trusts me more than him and I'm the one who takes a 270-degree offramp at 60mph (normally 35).

I know that the point of heel-toe is 'rev-matching' (also shifting and braking at the same time, but for that to happen you rev-match). I kinda assumed anyone who'd know what I'm talking about would know that when I said 'letting go of the clutch' I assumed Takumi had already rev-matched. Obviously, there's no point of heel-toe'ing if you're not gonna rev-match. ;x

We're always taught that doing the 'powerband boost' is much better while you're braking, that is engaging the third gear for a bit, then braking somemore to second gear, but some situations won't allow you the time to engage the third gear, and that is when you go from fourth to second without engaging the third gear. That is what happened in the fourth stage, I THINK. Anyone see the scene when he overtakes again? It's going in slow motion, and you see Takumi go to third then immediately to second. Which would mean in 'real' speed he was switching much faster. I guess it's possible for him to engage the third gear as sideways pointed, meaning letting the clutch go even before you properly put it in the third gear (I myself do that a lot), and then the next split-second shifting. I don't know if he did though, seems too less time.

Not really. Maybe for learning drivers, but takumi is well aware the speed limits his gears are capable of, so he wouldn't be making that mistake.

Exactly. But why do the extra motion? I mean, I would rather stick it straight from fourth to second, get my shifting hand back on the steering wheel and wait for the correct speed to be reached while braking (while rev-matching). Now I have both hands on the steering wheel and obviously better control. But that's just me.

Thats sort of what i was trying to say, specialy with takumi lol.

Unless you knwo the course VERY well and know which gear to take for each corner exactly-

On a course with a serious battle AND your unfamiliar with- its much easier to go

will 3rd gear work?... nope need to keep slowing down...

how about 2nd? ah, there we go.

ooo i c, so its much easier and saves time to go from 4th-to 3rd to 2nd

ill try to remember that when i learn how to drive a manual car this weekend

Thats what I was trying to say.

thewird

Ahhhh, yes. That's probably it. Takumi's unfamiliar with the course, therefore it's easier to 'feel' out what gear a turn is going through 4-3-2. I suspect that'll easily override getting two hands back on the wheel. I've been unsure plenty of times at what gear to tackle a corner...this is a good way. But if I see him doing it on Akina...head's are gonna roll...heh heh

Good thinking Thewird and sideways.

By the way Sideways, I'm curious to the comment where you said heel-toe doesn't do anything for the synchros, but double-clutching does. How does that work? This is interesting.

For everyone else, a 'double clutch' is nearly the same as heel-toe rev-matching part, with the exception that in double clutch, you put the gear in neutral THEN raise the revs, then engage the next gear.

Break down the processes and youll understanding

Heel:toe

Brake
Clutch in
Downshift+Rev-match
Release gas+clutch

(sorry to keep it so simple)

Double clutch:

Clutch in
Neutral
Clutch out
Rev-match
Clutch in
gear down
Clutch out

Your putting the car into netural to revmatch- this keeps everything conencted- including the synchros.

You dont do that for heel-toe, instead you rev match with everything disconected.

added: A heel-toe and double-clutch are comparable becuase your rev matching while downshifting.. but thats it.

If your on the brake, use heel toe. But theres times when your slowing down so slowly (no pun intended) that you dont need the brakes, and jsut letting off the throttle is enough. Thats where you could double-clutch. synchros are synchros, theyll last a LONG time unless you abuse them so its not really needed hoenstly. It just sounds/looks cool and its a little "smoother". So if yo uwant something to do, wanna be as smooth as you always can, or just want to show off.. use double-clutch. (but heel-toe is better for showing off )

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 21 2004, 06:09 PM

Sometimes I'm under the impression that Takumi double clutches while he heel-toes it. Look at his footwork in the First Stage, or the start theme of the Fourth Stage (I think, I'm not sure). It's definitely in the first stage. Watch his feet. His left foot pushed the clutch in, let's it out, then quickly pushes it in again. In heel-toe'ing you'd only need to release the clutch once, unless you're doing it TWICE, which is what you're supposed to do if you have enough time and you're going down from fourth to second.

Which is, heel-toe down to third, then heel-toe down to second. But I distinctly remember him putting it neutral, I'm not sure. At least when I heel-toe, I don't double-clutch.

Always thought it was jsut showing him downshifting twice.

He does 2 heel-toes, itd be slightly different if he was doublt clutching while doing it- If you notice he taps the gas each time? Hed onyl do it once for every 2 times he used the clutch.

You really dont need to double clutch while using a heel toe.. the move is so fast usually your internals dont have time to slow down. Itd take too long to double clutch while heel-toeing i think

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 21 2004, 06:16 PM

Concurred. Let's remember they're racing, and double-clutching would take valuable time to do.

isn't takumi doing it to initiate the weightshift

Braking does that not heel-toe braking in specific.

Heel-toe isnt a grip technique or a drift technique or a technique to weight shift.

Its simply the best braking and downshifting technique one could do- Braking, downshifting, and revmatching all in one move.

true that