Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register ) | Resend Validation Email |
18 Pages 1 2 3 » ( Go to first unread post ) |
chaos | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 03:30 PM |
IDW Full Member Group: Members Posts: 47 Member No.: 2,140 Joined: Jun 28th 2004 Location: Update Profile | As my name implies I love chaos, especially when I cause it. I remember the FF arguments and I declare FR WINNER !!! Don't argue. Now the next challenger...............wait for it..................AWD!!! (if u didn't c the topic..somehow) Now we must work ppl and hopefully I will ensinuate a very long argument. Here's my piece. Awd have the acceleration, stability and are difficult to spin out. On the other hand they can't take a turn as well as an FR because of the afore- mentioned stability and therefore traction. However they can put a lot of power down in the coners (more than FF) and can enter a drift at much higher speeds. Plus, they can use their redicilious power and through sheer force accelerate out of a corner quickly. Look at the evo, it's a rallyist's wet dream, fast in, fast out, get it? This ofcourse is not the best thing to do except on really sharp turns as it shreads the tires. Also, some AWD are prone to understeer and can't oversteer too well. In some cases this kill's time (g circle) and sometimes proves invincible (salomn). Well I'm done. Hopefully sidewaysgts or somebody who is good at arguing will expand this to a huge 1 month 20 page flame war....er....I mean "debate". ChAoS out |
sideways | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 05:45 PM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Id still go FR.. awd have acceleration goign for them but thats it, and thats just not my style. Theyre heavy because of their drive train, and have more components in it so they also lose more power through its. More weight = crappy turn in, also they understeer like a b*tch. Since their front tires have power they often spin easily while cornering, thus less traction, thus the understeer. Theyre fast as hell from corner to corner, and slow in them. Really comes down to personal preference and what your doing... This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 22 2004, 05:45 PM |
awddrifter | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:31 PM |
なんでやねん Group: Advanced Members Posts: 836 Member No.: 377 Joined: Apr 25th 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan | I personally *HEART* AWD, and I wouldn't trade it for any other drivetrain. But you are right, AWD does have its downfalls... mainly in the understeer department (sure the power is a bit down to the wheels too... but then again the power is split between 4 wheels so it ain't all bad). I only wish that all cars had an AWD system like the GT-R, where in normal conditions the power is 0:100 (RWD), but when the rear tires slip the power gets shifted partially to the front wheels (AWD), and a Controller to control this (like DCCD). If you set up your AWD car's suspension for slight oversteer instead of slight understeer like most Subaru's have for safety concerns (all it takes is a larger rear swaybar usually), and you will be smokin'. The EVO is already set up for a more oversteer-like cornering at the limit (but it still SLIGHTLY understeers at the limit), which is why it always beats the STi in a cornering comparison stock vs stock... but this isn't the case with a tiny modification. I like AWD becuase it can do everything a RWD car can do (except long, smoking burnouts). All you have to do is shift the weight on the car before cornering, becuase of the natural understeer characteristics of AWD (but hey, its not as bad as FF, lol). I like driving in the snow a lot as well, and I would never dream taking a RWD car in the snow when AWD is available. Also.. through the mountains... nothing will beat a well-tuned AWD car (I would like to see ANY RWD car beat a WRC car with the same hp, etc on a tarmac rally. Actually any hp is fine, it doesn't make a difference...) So i see it like this... AWD = more adaptable, good in all driving conditions (better than RWD on rain, gravel, snow), RWD = good on tarmac, but not adaptable like AWD. RWD and AWD are both good... I guess its just where your tastes lie. I think we need a link to the RWD vs AWD touge battle video from best mororing in this topic (this link is dead ) Also... if you watch best motoring April 1999... Nakaya tests the 1999 WRC EVO VI on tsukuba, and it almost beats the record lap time!! (and its only got 300hp!!)... it also recorded the fastest cornering speed out of any car to be tested on tsukuba. So it goes like this for me..... AWD > RWD > MR (unless on really tuned cars like f1 cars) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD (can you tell I hate FWD?) And as for driving conditions... its like this... Tarmac: RWD>AWD>FWD Snow: AWD>FWD>RWD Rain: AWD>FWD=RWD Gravel: AWD>RWD=FWD sidewaysgts: understeer like a b*tch?? very slow in corners? i think you are overexaggerating a little Also... not that this has to do with anything in this topic.. but I love it in initial D how (spoilers, highlight the text below) the only 2 cars to beat the AE86 are both AWD... the EVO III and the WRX STi Type-R =) This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 08:10 PM |
Proud Contributor of the Music Section Revival Project |
sideways | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:45 PM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Most awd systems to udnersteer like a b*tch especialy at high speeds. There are of course well tuned exceptions, like the skyline you mentioned, but they still understeer a lot compared to ff or rwd They make up for it with acceleratoin power though. If you can deal with the udnersteer their acceleration on straights and just at the endo f corners is awesome. |
alanj | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:53 PM | ||
Request Title - PM Mods Group: Members Posts: 355 Member No.: 2,059 Joined: Jun 21st 2004 Location: Update Profile |
i get it not sure what the 2nd part of that pun has to do w/ rally drivers but i myself still prefer FR. I have driven an AWD car and it still doesnt compare in any way (except for cornering) to an FR in my opinion | ||
awddrifter | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:23 PM |
なんでやねん Group: Advanced Members Posts: 836 Member No.: 377 Joined: Apr 25th 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan | Not that this has to do much with the topic... but which do you think would win on a road course... a WRC car or a Nextel Cup NASCAR? I definatley think it would be the WRC car, but my dad doesn't believe me and he thinks a NASCAR would destroy a WRC car on a road couse (hes a stupid NASCAR fan) |
Proud Contributor of the Music Section Revival Project |
Rayp | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:25 PM | ||
IDW Prime Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,386 Member No.: 210 Joined: Jan 25th 2003 Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada |
Since i'm the local FF guy, i can say i disagree a little with your summary. FF aren't bad at all in gravel, sand or dirt. It's a lot easier to get the rear loose, and i can pull it off without much weight shifting (usually with only the steering and throttle). With some tuning (and a nice LSD and tyres) it can be made even better... Well, as long as the drivers has some experience doing this. Of course i mean a sport compact car, not some family car. | ||
awddrifter | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:38 PM | ||
なんでやねん Group: Advanced Members Posts: 836 Member No.: 377 Joined: Apr 25th 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan |
I'm basing the gravel part on a rally-type situation. Since im a rally guy, and i do A LOT of rally spectating... i can tell you that AWD cars are the fastest on gravel, RWD cars are next (sometimes), and FWD cars have problems with understeering on gravel, and therefore are the slowest (sometimes). Sure, you can get the rear end loose, but how are you gonna get the power on and go through the corner fast? becuase if you hit the gas pedal all it will do is make your car understeer. If you have a properly tuned FWD car on gravel though (as in set-up for rally), it will probably be quicker than a RWD car (look at the Mopar SRT-4 rally car, its pretty quick for a FWD) The difference between RWD and FWD isn't much on gravel though (you are right though, in certian situations FWD could possibly be better than RWD on gravel in a street car)... but AWD is wayyy out ahead of both of them Now that I've thought it out more throughly.. i think ill put an equals sign in there instead. Thanks This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 07:51 PM | ||
Proud Contributor of the Music Section Revival Project |
1slowsupra | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:53 PM | ||
IDW Prime Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,549 Member No.: 356 Joined: Apr 13th 2003 Location: Update Profile |
This really depends on what type of race and what the track is like. I used to watch BTTC alot back in the days, before they banned the AWD Audis. With sharp turns and corners, the order is AWD > RWD > FWD. With tracks with almost no turns just long swoops, FWD = RWD > AWD. They gave the AWD weight penaltys and yet they still dominated, dominating so much they kicked them out. Every other type of race, gravel, snow, rain I agree with you on there. Im a fan of both AWD and FR. AWD has so much going for it, it is so easy to drive. Make a mistake and you can easily easily correct yourself. You can take a awd car anywhere. If I had a family and kids I would definitely get a WRX/STi or EVO. You would think I would be all over a AWD car by now...but still I perfer FR. FR is more of a challenge then anything. It levels the playing field and it requires more of the drivers SKILL then anything. AWD cars can almost drive themselves, with almost no skill at all to get through a corner. So IMO, not to bag on any of you in here or piss anyone off, having two extra front wheels to help guide you, to me is like training wheels. Theres a reason why every major automotive sport the vehicals are FR or RWD, cuz bottomline, they want SKILL to be the determining factor. Lets see, 90% sports cars, 95% exotics, NASCAR, F1, F3, ALMS, 24 Hours of LeMans, CART, JGTC all are rear driven cars. And yes, even the Skyline GTR is made FR just for JGTC. This post has been edited by 1slowsupra on Oct 22 2004, 07:59 PM | ||
Jabberwocky | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 08:04 PM |
Hero or Zero cornering Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,783 Member No.: 3,476 Joined: Oct 1st 2004 Location: Update Profile | |
Nd4SpdSe | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 08:30 PM |
FF Enthusiast Group: Advanced Members Posts: 775 Member No.: 2,422 Joined: Jul 31st 2004 Location: Ontario/Québec, Canada | IMO, AWD>FF>FR in any low traction environments |
sideways | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:05 PM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | In low traction condition, agreed. |
GC8 Bunta | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:11 PM |
IDW Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 77 Member No.: 2,390 Joined: Jul 27th 2004 Location: MD Touge | awd = great traction in any condition... but in terms of steering response and that sharp turning ability.... RWD all the way. rwd imho is the best drivetrain for dry weather conditions... awd drifting is incredible. nothing like the zero countersteer.... where the car is going complete sideways but the front wheels are completely straight. |
1slowsupra | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:11 PM | ||
IDW Prime Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,549 Member No.: 356 Joined: Apr 13th 2003 Location: Update Profile |
Which is why most factory cars out now are FF. It is safer. | ||
sideways | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:13 PM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Sadly, yup. and cheaper now too. Understeer = safe for drivers.. Who tend to slam on the brakes in an emergency. |
awddrifter | Posted: Oct 22 2004, 11:50 PM |
なんでやねん Group: Advanced Members Posts: 836 Member No.: 377 Joined: Apr 25th 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan | I guess it depends a lot on living conditons weither you like AWD or FR more. I've been living in canada for the past 12 years, so my driving conditions suit AWD more... im sure if i lived in Arizona or SoCal i would probably like FR more since you can't really reap the major benefits of AWD unless the conditions get tricky... This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 11:53 PM |
Proud Contributor of the Music Section Revival Project |
But she looked 18 of.. | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 12:31 AM |
I put the F U in FUN Group: Advanced Members Posts: 7,028 Member No.: 1,546 Joined: Mar 30th 2004 Location: bOObies! | Lets also not forget about mid-engine RWD and rear engine rwd(ie porsche's). |
AETRAN86 | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 08:27 AM | ||
Mr.TRAN Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,197 Member No.: 2,980 Joined: Sep 8th 2004 Location: Update Profile |
I totally think a WRC car would definatly win on a road course, I mean sure NASCAR is fast on ovals but I mean put them on a road course like luguna seca or somthing like that, not those road courses NASCAR has. Also I like AWD and RWD a few FWD but it all depends where you live, I live in MN and you can drive RWD all season but it becomes a pain. Anyways RWD tends to act a little better at highspeeds ie: F1 . Both are good and suspension on AWD can always be set to lessen the understeer, or of course you can go with AYC like in the evos and that will actuall give you some oversteer. I'm a huge fan of RWD but I must give the AWD respect, I mean slap an anti-lag system on there and you're set. | ||
AETRAN86 | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 08:30 AM | ||||
Mr.TRAN Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,197 Member No.: 2,980 Joined: Sep 8th 2004 Location: Update Profile |
Yea FF's arent bad I have seen them in rally alot, gravel, dirt ,tarmac, they do it all, very nicely I might add but they are in no way compitition for the AWDs. FF"s arent bad if you tune them right. | ||||
TRD-hachi-roku | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 09:03 AM |
Terror of da Nitez Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,294 Member No.: 383 Joined: Apr 26th 2003 Location: san francisco | there are after market ayc's?????? |
sideways | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 09:20 AM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | ALS (anti lag systems, misfiring systems) are a waste of money. Theyre needed in professional races becuase they have turbo restrictors, if you dont have one of those on your car your doign a lot of un-needed damage. Id like to believe the wrc car would win, but it might easily go to the nascar. They do handle pretty well, have the horsepower, and gearing to give them an advantage i think (and trust me, i hate nascar more then anyone here) And ive yet to see an evo oversteer... Suspension settings only go so far in helping a car handle. Even then, forcing an udnersteering car to oversteer may not always be the best and fastest way, this may actualy hurt the traction the car is capable of. You can tune a suspension but you can never hide a charecteristics of a vehicles handling abilities. ...TWINKIES RULE! |
F22A6 | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:15 AM |
CB7 Runner Group: Advanced Members Posts: 670 Member No.: 3,299 Joined: Sep 23rd 2004 Location: Fairfield, California | It all depends on what your gonna do |
AETRAN86 | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:29 AM |
Mr.TRAN Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,197 Member No.: 2,980 Joined: Sep 8th 2004 Location: Update Profile | Actually I have seen alot of EVOs using zero-counter, I've also seen a few of them drifting, also the anti-lag system depends on just that, how much lag you have, sure its a waste for most people but if your a serious racer then it might be a good investment. |
sideways | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:38 AM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Id rather get a bov to help with lag instead of blowing up my manifolds. And you can drift a car and still take a line that resembles what you would have taken if you understeered. Imo theres 2 types of understeer/oversteer. What your car is doing, and what line your car is taking, know what i mean? This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 23 2004, 10:40 AM |
AETRAN86 | Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:45 AM |
Mr.TRAN Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,197 Member No.: 2,980 Joined: Sep 8th 2004 Location: Update Profile | Agreed, I was saying the anti-lag system for those who are harcore rally racers, you know true die hard fans, since an anti-lag system would simply blow up any regular manifold. Don't get me wrong I'm a die hard FR fan but you can't really saw AWD vehicles are bad, I mean they have become alot more sophisticated in the past 20 years. This post has been edited by AETRAN86 on Oct 23 2004, 10:46 AM |
18 Pages 1 2 3 » |