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| Initial D World - Discussion Board / Forums > Technical Discussion > Supercharger and Turbocharger: Twincharger! |
| Posted by: Vortrex Nov 15 2012, 10:08 AM |
| It is possible to make a 4AGE or an other engine both Supercharged and Turbocharged? Like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Delta_S4! If it is possible on a 4AGE it would be the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfHQxLSJ9w. Even the Japanese would be scared of it. That's just one heck of a scary sound! Oh wow, it actually is on some VW cars:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger. I didn't knew there were production cars of it... So, what do you guys think about it?  |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 15 2012, 12:16 PM | ||
That name is redundant as hell. It's 'Devil Devil 4AGE'.  |
| Posted by: JKaiba Nov 15 2012, 12:32 PM | ||
 twin charged sounds needlessly complicated for production of power out of a motor that goes in a car that doesn't car that much about power. Think of the heat and detonation... I know it's been done but it sounds like some mad science experiment for someone with disposable income and not someone who's serious about using the car for anything other than an oddities exhibit. |
| Posted by: TTH Nov 15 2012, 12:45 PM |
| Already done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WLj-gv5sUY&feature=plcp |
| Posted by: JKaiba Nov 15 2012, 12:58 PM | ||||
Yes we know it's been done. I mentioned that in my post. Remember it was you who asked
like you were asking if it were possible or not so I'm confused, are you asking questions or do you already know the answer and you're just flaunting it? |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 15 2012, 01:21 PM | ||
Funny, J. I'd think you would recognize this behavior since you're a mod over on WME. Wasn't there a member there who did the same obnoxious nonsense? Ah yes, here we go: https://idforums.net/index.php?showtopic=34120 https://wmexpressway.net/index.php?showtopic=28429 https://wmexpressway.net/index.php?showtopic=28422 It was a lot longer ago than I thought though. I must be old, 2008 feels like last month. |
| Posted by: JKaiba Nov 15 2012, 01:37 PM |
| Oh crap.. I just realized. I mistook TTH for OP... @TTH you have my apologies. I really do hope though this isn't going to turn into one of those threads like Nomake brought up. OP- what exactly do you know or think about these engines or is all of it the junk that's in your opening post. Because an engine sounds insane doesn't necessarily mean it's great. I want to understand what the point of an engine like this is other than create more work when there are easier ways to make power and to that end what would you use that power for? 4AGE or the cars it goes into isn't exactly what I think of when I ask- what do I want to make beastly 400+hp with. I believe one of the members here drives/drove a twin charged VW maybe he has something to say. |
| Posted by: Vortrex Nov 15 2012, 01:55 PM |
Okay guys, that car sounds MAD!  Maybe i'm just happy with 130HP... As JKaiba said, 4AGE is just the best underpowered sportsengine! And thanks for the reply's. (I know Akuma means Devil, but i thought if somebody didn't know that: he would ask me what Akuma is) |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 15 2012, 02:02 PM | ||
JKaiba didn't say that, and I'd like to know your source on this. Are you just spouting nonsense or do you actually have some facts to back up your claim? And if you were worried about people interpreting you incorrectly you should've just put it in English and left it that way. English forum and all that. |
| Posted by: TTH Nov 15 2012, 02:21 PM |
| Maybe I should apology too, I misread the first post as "Is it possible make 4AGE twincharged". I was thinking the OP wanted to know that is it possible to make one without inventing the wheel again. Yeah, of cource it's possible to make fairly cheap twincharged engine becouse now they're massproducing one. Is twincharging a good thing? Hell yes! Great torque from low-down to awesome power on high rpms! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDK3K2TlAWs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hibwpck4nmk&feature=youtu.be And guess how rednecks love those things... Now Finnish roads are filled with all sorts of RWD cars powered by Merc-diesel and fed by atleast big-ass Holset, most of the times big-ass Holset and Eaton supercharger... |
| Posted by: Vortrex Nov 15 2012, 02:36 PM | ||
I was referring to Wangan Midnight: the S30Z. And maybe JKaiba didn't said that but he said that are a lot of ways to increase power, and the 4AGE is not an engine to easily ask how to make lots of HP. So my opinion is that a 500 HP 4AGE is just way worse than a 130HP, There is no soul anymore if you go that far. My fav car is the R34 GTR since i was 6 or something. But if you buy the 'Mines R34' with about 600HP: i don't like the car anymore. Too much HP is to me no fun. Why i started this thread is because i always wanted to know if there was a Twincharged 4AGE. And yes, i didn't knew there we're Twincharged cars (except Delta S4) until i started this thread! |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 15 2012, 04:19 PM | ||
How does the S30Z in Wangan Midnight at all relate to your BS statement about '4AGE is just the best underpowered sportsengine'? That makes absolutely no sense and the more you post the less I can follow your train of thought. On top of that, the S30Z in Wangan Midnight is twin turbo, not twincharged. So like I said... the more you post the more confused I get. |
| Posted by: MetalMan777 Nov 15 2012, 04:30 PM | ||
BMW M10 is the best underpowered sportsengine. . Also, you don't need both a supercharger and a turbo if you just have one turbo setup properly. Turbo technology has come a long way since twincharging was a factory option. |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 15 2012, 05:44 PM | ||
Source or permaban. |
| Posted by: JKaiba Nov 15 2012, 05:47 PM | ||
I'm sorry but am I the only one who's reminded of this when I read this thread?
OP asked a really awkwardly worded question about what we thought about twin charged 4AGE engines, put words in my mouth not once but twice, N1 tries to ask a question with simple answers and we get an answer about 'the 4AG the lost its way/soul' and how R34s rule... I was genuinely curious about this twin charged 4AG business except OP seems to do nothing but detract from their own thread. back on topic: It's hard to tell who in this thread is insane and who isn't can anyone help me sort through the clabber? http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=87435 |
| Posted by: Vortrex Nov 16 2012, 02:25 AM | ||
Okay, that sound good, i didn't knew it was cheap. I think it is time to own a real engine myself and think about the tuning of it. To Nomake Wan: The refer about S30Z was about the 'Devil Akuma 4AGE', not about that 4AGE is ONE of the best underpowered sportscar. (not the best) I said that wrong. Sorry guys that you misunderstood me. I'm very bad at english, i have D- for english... And i just wanted to know about Twincharged, i think i'd never get the chance to even own a 4AGE...  So guys, don't make a big fuss about this topic... All my questions are answered! To JKaiba: And the one who is the most insane is me. I made some mistakes. And thanks for the link! |
| Posted by: sometrueno Nov 16 2012, 03:39 AM |
| best underpowered sports engine is the ls7 |
| Posted by: TTH Nov 16 2012, 05:50 AM | ||
I think he's referring to 80's BMW turbocharged F1-engines, they were based on used M10-block. Also the original M3's engines were based around M10 architecture.. And about this topic: Everyone here have misunderstood something and now blaming each other about their misunderstandings. Vortrex meant: Twincharged 4A-GTZE: 悪魔の4A-GE, similar nickname like WM's Z, 悪魔のＺ. Both have insane power and torque and that's where the nickname for both comes from. Nothing more. I don't get how you folks got so big fuss about it... To Cactus Well I wouldn't be so sure. I think twinturbos are pretty much useless in these days, with twinscroll it's possible to get similar response and power with much less cost and hassle. But twincharging is another thing, in those Merc's I posted, the supercharger is already giving boost on pretty close to idle speeds. So the supercharger is giving a good boost from 1000rpm to 3000-3500rpm and then the big-ass turbo finally kicks in. On high-rpm's, the supercharger's boost is led to atmosphere, not in the engine becouse supercharger loses it's efficiency and pretty much turns as a manly hairblower, boosting too little and mainly too hot air to be used on high rpm's. So twincharging does have it's difficulties but in the end, it will reward you!  |
| Posted by: AzureAlkaid Nov 16 2012, 06:13 AM |
| Well just out of curiosity since i'm also an airhead in this topic as well... Does twincharger makes the engine maintenance become much more costly and complex? because correct me if i'm wrong but i suppose twin turbo is the most efficient way to get your desired power, and it's simpler too... |
| Posted by: Vortrex Nov 16 2012, 06:30 AM |
| I think TTH just got it right! |
| Posted by: TTH Nov 16 2012, 08:24 AM | ||
I think maintenance is not any more complex than on normal turbocharged engine, only thing you need to more worried about is the fanbelt which powers also the supercharger. Oilchange intervals are as critical for both of the engines as they are both charged. Twinturbo used to most efficient way to charge gasoline engine but now twinscroll turbos are the leading technology. BMW uses twinscroll turbo on all it's new turbocharged engines and Evo's have had one since IV(?) With twinscroll you only need one turbo, one manifold etc. so that's why it's better. And talking about twinchargers I think it's actually much simplier than twinturbo, with twinturbo you need to have both wastegates tuned just the similar way, all the vacuum hoses just right etc. Just google "RX7 rat's nest" and you'll get what I mean.. With twinchargers you only got one turbo to set-up and figure how to make the shift between supercharged and turbocharged air. Usually it's done with bleed-valve alike flap, when turbo is pushing the desired boost pressure, the flap opens and let's off superchargers boost. For diesel there's VGT and VNT (same thing, different brand) technology which cannot be transformed to gasoline engine that easily becouse of gasoline engines much higher exhaust temperatures. Porsche 997 has a VGT one but it's still not mainstream thing. On aftermarket it may never happen becouse you need some sort of ECU to control the turbine, and gasoline VGT might just cost too much to be a mainstream thing. But on diesel engine, twinturbo's are becoming more popular year after year. BMW's M-diesel actually has three(!) turbochargers and I think they all are VGT's... God bless the mechanic who's need to do some maintenance to that thing...  |
| Posted by: AzureAlkaid Nov 16 2012, 09:28 AM | ||
I see, yeah i also thought that the supercharger that will give us more work to do, given its nature... Heck i even don't know that some of those BMW M-Diesel engines are using three turbos! Maybe that's because of that concern about our environment and stuff in Europe.... they choose to ditch those big engines like V10s and V12s and choose to work on smaller but turbocharged engines (like Mclaren did with their MP4-12C)... anyways thanks for clearing this up!  |
| Posted by: MetalMan777 Nov 16 2012, 03:13 PM | ||||||
HELLO EVERYNYAN! HOW ARE YOU? FINE THANKYOU. Brabham 50-56. Engine block was taken from a ~30,000 mile used street engine. The theory was that if the engine had done that many miles and didn't show any defects, it was perfect for an F1 car.
When did I mention twin turbos? Regardless, they still have advantages over twinscroll turbos. However, twinscrolls are so nice, why would you even bother with a supercharger? So you don't have 100% of your torque between 1000 and 1400rpm. Just rev to 1500 then feather the clutch. For the money, a single, properly sized twin scroll is the best upgrade you can do. Superchargers aren't as efficient as turbos, and they never will be. You drive a compressor off the crankshaft, and you're sucking power that could go to the wheels. Drive a compressor off the exhaust, and you're harvesting nearly free energy. Twincharging represents lazy engineering anymore. Turbo tech has come so far since the 80's, a well designed turbo setup is better than anything involving a supercharger. Do some math and you'll never be bothered by lag.
Twins aren't necessarily more efficient than a single, properly sized turbo. This entirely depends on your boost requirement, and the size of your engine. In fact, a small engine with multiple turbos can actually be less efficient than a single one-scroll. I suggest you http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353107866&sr=8-1&keywords=maximum+boost |
| Posted by: TTH Nov 16 2012, 04:56 PM | ||
| Yeah, every coin got two sides, basically we're here just picking on each other's texts. If a person got some clue how turbocharged engine works then he'll just need to use his common sense and bit of thinking.
I think we both know our stuff pretty well so there's no need start flame war.. If a twinturbo small sized engine was more efficient then we would've seen them in production too. I'm pretty sure you understood between the lines that I was referring RB26, 2JZ and all the rest of 6-pot jap engines made in the era, when they were twinturbo crazy becouse of it's efficiency. And even today, pretty much on the V-engines, twins still are the most simple and efficient solution. But on straight engine, more time you put on a good twinscroll setup, happier you are.. My  |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Nov 16 2012, 05:27 PM | ||
Not necessarily the case. Just because something is good doesn't mean it'll end up in a production car. There are plenty of prototype vehicles/drivetrains that were freaking amazing but never ended up in production. Mercedes Benz's old racing days come to mind. Unfortunately a lot of production cars are hampered by cost/complexity problems as well as political and executive decision-making. Efficiency is not necessarily why a certain design doesn't get made. After all, the Wankel was made into a production motor! |
| Posted by: s12drifter Nov 16 2012, 06:18 PM | ||
^ very correct. there is a 6 stroke/cycle engine that uses water after the 4th stroke which turns into steam giving it two more strokes. it doesnt need a radiator or cooling system because the water/steam cools it down so much. it would help fuel economy and power output too. however it's not in a single production car yet. and the idea came about in 1929 LOL |
| Posted by: DigiBunny Nov 16 2012, 09:58 PM |
| *Raises hand* Since Twinscroll turbos were mentioned, I'd like to ask anyway. How is it compare to a Twin turbo, functionally? From what I gather, it smoothens the airflow by sorting out the exhaust pulses that result from every stroke? |
| Posted by: Soran Nov 16 2012, 11:40 PM |
| I drive a twincharged VW. It's a 1.4 litre Jetta that does 160hp stock Good thing about it is the torque, 250nm of it makes for jolly good fun at the lights |
| Posted by: MetalMan777 Nov 17 2012, 12:08 AM | ||
Twin turbos give you two completely diferent sets of compressors and turbines, ideally tuned to different airflow requirements (note similar boost pressure) . A twinscroll will simply allow you two different a/r ratios on the same turbine wheel. If you don't know that that means, I suggest you google area/radius ratio. [ Post made via Mobile Device ] |
| Posted by: s12drifter Nov 17 2012, 09:33 AM |
| I'm running a twin scroll turbo. i start boosting by about 2400rpms and hit full boost by 3k |
| Posted by: chillined Nov 26 2012, 07:05 PM |
| Very nice, that's a quick spool up. I'm a big fan of the Holset HX series, they spool instantly with twin scroll, and are reliable to high heaven with great care. |
| Posted by: s12drifter Nov 27 2012, 06:10 PM | ||
I have HX35 with a billet wheel (rare) and it's be RETARDED reliable. |
| Posted by: chillined Nov 27 2012, 06:47 PM |
| Batmowheel? |
| Posted by: Spaz Nov 27 2012, 09:29 PM | ||
He's referring to the HX35 with a billet wheel being rare, not it having a wheel with a rare design. Those batmowheels are pretty awesome though. |
| Posted by: s12drifter Nov 28 2012, 08:09 AM |
| it came with a billet wheel. i have no idea but it looks original like spaz said. i would like to do a HX40/35 though. |
| Posted by: chillined Nov 28 2012, 05:11 PM | ||
Indeed. It's why I assumed BatMoWheel, because if I was going billet, it'd be that. Still, that's pretty cool having a billet HX35, explains the quick spool. |
| Posted by: Chihiro Mar 5 2013, 07:25 PM | ||
It's possible, use the 4A-GZE Block and Head (4A-GZE is a supercharged 4A-GE from the AW11 MR2) and modify it for twin charging but the question is the engine's reliability. Or use the Formula Atlantic 4A-GE motor it does really handle the boost abuse. Natural Aspirated Engines for me is still the best. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 8 2013, 05:15 PM | ||
OTOH, economy is also the primary reason they're no longer in production... |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 8 2013, 05:40 PM | ||
Right, but look at how long they were in active production and in consumer cars. Compare that to the discussion at hand and you'll find the relevance in my statement. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 9 2013, 06:20 PM |
| Yeah, but we haven't seen a true high-performance rotary sold in the US since 1996... that's 17 years! And that same high performance rotary engine went out of production in 2002. The last mass produced three-rotor rotary went out of production in 1995. |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 9 2013, 07:02 PM |
| I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand...? The point was that the Wankel design, with all its flaws, was in production vehicles for so long. It doesn't matter whether it was a 'high-performance' version or not. The point was simply that they were around. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 10 2013, 05:32 PM |
| They were around when gas was $2 a gallon, is my point. And bad gas mileage is what killed the RX-8. For what it's worth, two-stroke engines, for all their flaws, were around for a long time too, but they're being phased out because of how bad they are for the environment. |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 10 2013, 06:13 PM | ||
2-stroke engines have been in production cars? Please provide source? But since you seem to still be missing--perhaps on purpose--the point I was making, the point is still that twincharging wasn't done in production vehicles of any significant number or for any significant length of time, and that efficiency cannot be deemed the hard-and-fast reason since inefficient engines have been in production cars aplenty. Hopefully this is the last time I'll need to repeat myself since at this point I really don't feel like doing it anymore. |
| Posted by: s12drifter Apr 10 2013, 06:15 PM | ||
volvo or saab had a engine with a 2 stroke i forget what model... i believe. im not 100% i remember hearing something about it |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 10 2013, 10:17 PM | ||
Of course not, twincharging hasn't been done because it's it doesn't make any sense. Both a turbo or a supercharger will give you as much power as you could possibly need, the only difference being that the supercharger is less efficient and more linear. If you're worried about turbo lag all you need is the right gear ratios and some sort of anti-lag. And it also doesn't work financially... which is why even the Veyron is has quadruplet turbos instead of a two giant turbos and a supercharger. It just complicates things unnecessarily. |
| Posted by: s12drifter Apr 11 2013, 10:58 AM | ||
this I completely disagree with i dont know how much you know about internal combustion engines but anti lag DESTROYS engines turbos exhaust manifold. if you have a anti lag car i give no more the 5,000 miles on a professionally built engine. |
| Posted by: TTH Apr 11 2013, 11:24 AM | ||||
All old Saabs before 1967 had 2-stroke 3 cyl engine.. Which brings me to my favourite topic, Saab "Ecopower"
VAG still has twincharged engine in production and it's pretty much the most popular petrol engine in Europe.. The 1.4 TSI is available to pretty much any VAG-group vehicle, from Audi to Skoda... Of cource, it's only one engine model but still, the production numbers of this engine is starting to be pretty significant.. So it cannot be complete junk if it's still in production after eight years.. |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 11 2013, 02:06 PM | ||
Well I'll be damned.  |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 11 2013, 02:33 PM | ||
Afterburn systems aren't the only kind of anti-lag. |