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> Winter driving dicussion
Fuman
  Posted: Oct 18 2004, 04:00 PM


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Hey guys,

Gonna need a little advice.

I'm turning 20 soon, with 2 season of winter driving exp over my belt. But I drive even in snow storms and I screw around in the parking lots (empty) when it snows.

Of all conditions, I know how to handle most of em.

But ONE that i have NO CLUE how to handle is black ice.

I ran into a LARGE sheet of black ice at like 20km/h (literally 20).
Steering didnt work, car just kept spinning. Human ABS didnt work either. I ended up sliding into the curb and car finally stop <-- took 15 seconds... lol.
this happened during my 1st season of winter driving.






Indecisive
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 04:02 PM


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there's not much you can do when you hit a patch of black ice man.

Nd4SpdSe
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 04:05 PM


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hit reverse and floor it, steer away and floor it? , ya theres nothing much you can do
Fuman
  Posted: Oct 18 2004, 04:07 PM


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awww that sucks... thanks anyway.
Rayp
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 05:59 PM


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Some winter tyres are know to be great on ice, and some have spikes that help with black ice. For sure black ice is the worst thing you can get on in winter, but the only advice i can give you : Be very gentle with steering and throttle on thoses, very little is needed to break loose (but it's possible to drive on them).
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 06:04 PM


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how about press down on the clutch, ease down on the breaks, and pull the e-brakes ever so slightly, while holding the release button?

urg... im not much help...
Fuman
  Posted: Oct 18 2004, 06:22 PM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Oct 18 2004, 05:59 PM)
Some winter tyres are know to be great on ice, and some have spikes that help with black ice. For sure black ice is the worst thing you can get on in winter, but the only advice i can give you : Be very gentle with steering and throttle on thoses, very little is needed to break loose (but it's possible to drive on them).

i wish i can drive spike tires for daily driving!
but yeah, i only encountered it once, so i have had no chance to try out stuff.

VRr1FD
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 07:11 PM


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use winter tires, the rubber stays soft in colder temps. and don't do anything, just try and ride through it straight. assuming you notice it before you start to spin.
Neurogirl
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 07:31 PM


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QUOTE (Fuman @ Oct 18 2004, 07:00 PM)
Hey guys,

Gonna need a little advice.

I'm turning 20 soon, with 2 season of winter driving exp over my belt. But I drive even in snow storms and I screw around in the parking lots (empty) when it snows.

Of all conditions, I know how to handle most of em.

But ONE that i have NO CLUE how to handle is black ice.

I ran into a LARGE sheet of black ice at like 20km/h (literally 20).
Steering didnt work, car just kept spinning. Human ABS didnt work either. I ended up sliding into the curb and car finally stop <-- took 15 seconds... lol.
this happened during my 1st season of winter driving.

oh oh my brakes went out and i plowed into a snow bank!!! Just be carful and dont drive insane.... black ice is nothing to mess with or fool around with especially if you live on sharp curving roads like me.
Luken
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 07:31 PM


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ummm those wheel cover things, they dont help with performance but itll help avoid rusting from the winter salt on the ground
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 08:29 PM


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I live in Mn and am 20 been driving for four years winters and all, but you should know theres nothing you can do about black ice.
flohtingPoint
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 08:40 PM


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Winter driving huh? Dont have a RWD car and take it slow and easy, thats the best advice you can get.
Möbius
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 11:34 PM


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QUOTE (WRX DEMON @ Oct 18 2004, 10:04 PM)
how about press down on the clutch, ease down on the breaks, and pull the e-brakes ever so slightly, while holding the release button?

urg... im not much help...

How exactly would that help? That would make it worse... rolleyes.gif

The thing with black ice is you have to learn where to expect it...

I'm not kidding here... That's the best way to deal with it...

Asphalt in winter time is a kind of a light grey colour. If you see anything that's black, then that's black ice... If the road is snowed over , and there's a section where the snow isn't built up high, there's a big chance there's black ice under there...

Experience will help a lot to identify potential black ice spots... wink2.gif

If you DO hit black ice, don't do anything abrupt... It will upset the balance of your car ( which should still be traveling in a straight line if you didn't do anything )...

You could brake gently, but NEVER, EVER try to brake and steer at the same time!

If your brakes are no good and pull to one side, get them fixed before the winter!

EDIT : I just realized I spelled asphalt, like ashalt.... w00t2.gif typo

This post has been edited by Moebius on Oct 19 2004, 07:42 AM
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 11:35 PM


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Get an AWD car, and put on Nokian Hakkapeliitta's for tyres (like me). Black ice? Pfft.... no problem =)

Yeah but seriously... i used to have Bridgestone Potenza RE92's on my car (comes with the car from factory) and i slid all over the place. Once I put on a good set of winter tyres (I can't stress enough how much Nokian's rule), the difference was unbelieveable.

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 18 2004, 11:42 PM
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Möbius
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 11:36 PM


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QUOTE (flohtingPoint @ Oct 19 2004, 12:40 AM)
Winter driving huh? Dont have a RWD car and take it slow and easy, thats the best advice you can get.

4x 50lbs. of sand in the trunk... wink2.gif

100lbs. over each wheel... laugh.gif
Möbius
Posted: Oct 18 2004, 11:38 PM


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QUOTE (Luken @ Oct 18 2004, 11:31 PM)
ummm those wheel cover things, they dont help with performance but itll help avoid rusting from the winter salt on the ground

Wheel cover thingies?

You mean mud flaps?

What do they have to do with black ice? w00t2.gif
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 04:49 AM


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Ive never been over black ice, just snow... It was a guess... I said "urg... im not much help" sad.gif

Apex, you've got experience with black ice, what car do you drive?

This post has been edited by WRX DEMON on Oct 19 2004, 04:51 AM
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 04:54 AM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 18 2004, 11:35 PM)
Get an AWD car, and put on Nokian Hakkapeliitta's for tyres (like me). Black ice? Pfft.... no problem =)

Yeah but seriously... i used to have Bridgestone Potenza RE92's on my car (comes with the car from factory) and i slid all over the place. Once I put on a good set of winter tyres (I can't stress enough how much Nokian's rule), the difference was unbelieveable.

awd drifter, im guessing you drive a 2.5rs Impreza (guessing by your avatar)? How much better on ice is it than say a RWD car? FF car?
HaloZ
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 04:57 AM


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what to do in black ice? don't die.

driving on frozen over passes in texas and other parts of the south are nerve racking. i tend to just slow down to 20 ish and put it in to nutral and glide over over. any amount of gas will make be dlide sideways. so if i need more power it make it across i give gentle, short periods of gas. but even my truck has a vlsd and it has a bit of touq split between the wheels.=\
Möbius
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:45 AM


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QUOTE (WRX DEMON @ Oct 19 2004, 08:49 AM)
Ive never been over black ice, just snow... It was a guess... I said "urg... im not much help" sad.gif

Apex, you've got experience with black ice, what car do you drive?

Car choice doesn't really matter on black ice...

Because you're basically in a near zero grip situation....

Even the guy who was posting AWD w/ right tires and he has no problems, I don't think he's talking about black ice...

Black ice : sheet of ice , often hidden underneath a layer of snow, created by the melting of the snow at the bottom ( due to pressure of the layers above ), then refreezing when it got colder. It's like the surface of a skating rink...

^ That's off the top of my head...

Here's a page:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/bgm/news/jan04.htm

Small excerpt :

"Remember that it takes twice as much distance to stop on ice than under normal driving circumstances, so be prepared to slow down early before intersections and other scheduled stops. Obey posted speed limits and keep a safe two to three car length distance between you and other vehicles. If you see a patch of black ice before you reach it, try to slow down on the approach, but never brake on the ice. This will put your car into a skid. Try to coast through the area. Four wheel or all wheel drive won't provide any additional traction benefit on ice, so don't count on it. Always be sure to plan ahead for your trip during the winter months."

One thing I forgot that's important... Black ice often forms on bridges first...

This post has been edited by Moebius on Oct 19 2004, 07:53 AM
Möbius
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:57 AM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Oct 18 2004, 09:59 PM)
Some winter tyres are know to be great on ice, and some have spikes that help with black ice.

I missed this yesterday, but just to make sure people know...

In most areas in Canada, spikes are not legal to be used on public streets. cool.gif
Rayp
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:57 AM


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QUOTE (Moebius @ Oct 19 2004, 07:45 AM)
Black ice : sheet of ice , often hidden underneath a layer of snow, created by the melting of the snow at the bottom ( due to pressure of the layers above ), then refreezing when it got colder. It's like the surface of a skating rink...

^ That's off the top of my head...

Happen when the weather is very cold, unlikely to appear when it's barrely bellow freezing point.
Möbius
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 08:00 AM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Oct 19 2004, 11:57 AM)
QUOTE (Moebius @ Oct 19 2004, 07:45 AM)
Black ice : sheet of ice , often hidden underneath a layer of snow, created by the melting of the snow at the bottom ( due to pressure of the layers above ), then refreezing when it got colder. It's like the surface of a skating rink...

^ That's off the top of my head...

Happen when the weather is very cold, unlikely to appear when it's barrely bellow freezing point.

Not really....

You need to have a warm->cold transition earlier in the day or the day before....

The snow has to melt, then refreeze before going in the drain...

So basically when you hit it on the road, it's a really cold day ( it helps if it's really cold as it has to freeze before it has a chance to flow away ), but the actual ice itself formed on a not so cold day ( close to melting temp. )

Hope that helps ( look at the site I linked wink2.gif )
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 09:27 AM


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Yeah... my post was mostly for on all winter stuff.... not just black ice. For black ice, there isn't much you can really do once your spinning out, so you have to anticipate where the ice will be (most common place is ontop of bridges). If you've witnessed a period where the snow or ice melted, but then froze back again before it could evaporate or wash away, then just SLOW DOWN, because thats the ideal conditions for black ice. I know this has all been said before, but I just wanted to emphasize the SLOW DOWN part happy.gif

Also... about Nokian Hakka's... the main reason I bought them is because I was spectating at Rally Perce-Neige this year (a rally in Canada), and when I saw one of the EVO 4's tear through the stage where I was.. I wondered what tires he was using... after I learned that they were STUDLESS Nokian Hakka's (since studs aren't allowed at the rally for 4wd cars apparently), I had to go out and buy myself a set smile.gif

EDIT: I found a vid too of the EVO 4 on one of the stages where I was spectating (im off to the side of the road in a group of spectators at 5:37 in). BTW there are no pacenotes allowed either, so the co-driver only has a routebook. Some badass driving I might say happy.gif

http://www.guideauto.com/video/FARLEY39k.wmv

If you live in North America and haven't been to a rally (either SCCA Pro Rally in the USA, CARS rally (Canadian Association of Rallysport) in canada, or a WRC event in Mexico.... then you are missing out.... (if you've been to a rally overseas... then props to you =) )

Sorry for hijacking your thread laugh.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 19 2004, 09:52 AM
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AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 09:36 AM


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Awddrifter is right though, there are certain locations that are more likely to have black ice than others, like bridges etc..

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