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> Engine Cooling, Just a few general questions
Skv012a
Posted: May 14 2010, 03:27 AM


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I've been thinking what could be an actually worthwhile upgrade to my Z while I'm still in the overall learning process, and one logical idea I came up with is better cooling system. Can't push the car in higher rpm that long without better cooling, right? Any thoughts and/or suggestions regarding this matter?

This post has been edited by Skv012a on May 14 2010, 03:27 AM
impreza0109
Posted: May 14 2010, 04:02 AM


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adding an aerodynamic hood vent can be nice, just my two cents. xD
Skv012a
Posted: May 14 2010, 12:14 PM


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Nice or actually works? I'd imagine not having a hood at all would work, but that's not good for numerous reasons. Also, aren't a good deal of bumper and maybe even hood vents there just to help cool brakes?

This post has been edited by Skv012a on May 14 2010, 12:15 PM
Spaz
Posted: May 14 2010, 02:18 PM


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Hood vents help with cooling, yes.

Why you need to worry about cooling on a stock car is beyond me unless you've had overheating problems. If you were going turbo and throwing a big intercooler in the grill I'd understand, but there's no reason the stock cooling system can't handle a stock car. If you're worried, just throw a thick aluminum radiator in there and call it good.
Mr. Shine
Posted: May 14 2010, 04:14 PM


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Gauges.

Get a set of decent gauges, water temperature and oil temperature (and I suppose oil pressure), and if you see there that you have issues, then think about upgrading.

This post has been edited by Mr. Shine on May 14 2010, 04:15 PM
Skv012a
Posted: May 14 2010, 06:40 PM


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Oil temp gauge sounds like a good idea. Water is stock everywhere and I have oil pressure gauge stock.
Spaz
Posted: May 14 2010, 06:54 PM


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Stock oil pressure gauges are generally slow to respond, especially on older cars. They also have no graduation markings or markings with little to no meaning.

My Talon's stock gauge was a great example. It had a low and a high line, and a line relatively in the middle. The high and low lines were not, as you might think, the acceptable operational range, you had to go 1/2 centimeter away from those lines to get to that point. Then there was that center line, which I never figured out what it meant. It wasn't cruising pressure, and it wasn't idle pressure, it appeared to just be a random line somewhere in between.

I did however, despite it being slow and relatively information-less, figure out over time how to read it to enough of a degree that when the sender for my idiot light failed, I was able to determine, without removing myself from the driver's seat, that everything was working just fine. Would I have trusted it to the extent that I never would have bought an oil pressure gauge for the car if I'd kept it? Of course not. But it did do enough for me on a relatively stock car to not be completely worthless.

Stock temp gauges are generally accurate enough to determine what's going on, I've never worried about that too much.

This post has been edited by cmspaz on May 14 2010, 06:54 PM
Skv012a
Posted: May 14 2010, 09:29 PM


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I'd imagine that the ex-30k car's stock oil pressure gauge is decent enough, but good input.

Should I look into a possible ECU swap or a means of hooking the thing up to a laptop? That could take care of quite a few monitoring and electronic-tuning things.

This post has been edited by Skv012a on May 14 2010, 09:30 PM
Mr. Shine
Posted: May 14 2010, 09:35 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ 2 hours, 41 minutes ago)
Stock temp gauges are generally accurate enough to determine what's going on, I've never worried about that too much.

Pretty much this.

Honestly, I only suggested gauges so that I could give you something to look at getting, but honestly if you haven't done anything serious to the car's engine in terms of modifying performance, then you won't have any need whatsoever to upgrade your engine's cooling systems.

My advice? Get the coolant flushed and try taking it to the track. If you notice on a track day that your temperature gauge is getting uncomfortably high then you can do something about it.

EDIT:

QUOTE
Should I look into a possible ECU swap or a means of hooking the thing up to a laptop? That could take care of quite a few monitoring and electronic-tuning things.


To what end, though?

FURTHER EDIT:

I should point out that, for the money you spend on playing with engine management, you'd be better off investing in a decent intake and exhaust setup. You are not going to screw much more power out of a 350Z on a budget unless you go forced induction.

This post has been edited by Mr. Shine on May 14 2010, 10:24 PM
Möbius
Posted: May 15 2010, 01:53 AM


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I would look into tightening the loose nut behind the steering wheel first. smile.gif
Bubs
Posted: May 17 2010, 08:11 AM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ May 14 2010, 03:18 PM)
Hood vents help with cooling, yes.

Why you need to worry about cooling on a stock car is beyond me unless you've had overheating problems. If you were going turbo and throwing a big intercooler in the grill I'd understand, but there's no reason the stock cooling system can't handle a stock car. If you're worried, just throw a thick aluminum radiator in there and call it good.

This.

If the car is stock, and it's built by a reputable company, then I really hope that the stock radiator and cooling system are built to handle the car's stock limits.
Steve
Posted: May 17 2010, 12:58 PM


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1. Water and Oil Temperature Gauge
2. user posted image Koyo Radiator
3.user posted image Radiator Shroud/Block-Off Plate

This post has been edited by Steve on May 17 2010, 12:59 PM
Mr. Shine
Posted: May 17 2010, 01:26 PM


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QUOTE (Steve @ 27 minutes, 55 seconds ago)
3.http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/1356/4841/28389920068_large.jpg Radiator Shroud/Block-Off Plate

Don't forget some form of ducting underneath the car as well.

Of course, this will all probably be useless if he's just running a factory engine rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Mr. Shine on May 17 2010, 01:27 PM
Spaz
Posted: May 17 2010, 09:23 PM


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QUOTE (Mr. Shine @ 7 hours, 56 minutes ago)
Of course, this will all probably be useless if he's just running a factory engine rolleyes.gif

Needs moar turbo.
Mr. Shine
Posted: May 17 2010, 11:11 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ 1 hour, 48 minutes ago)
Needs moar turbo.

Nah, needs moar VK swap biggrin.gif
sideways
Posted: May 17 2010, 11:45 PM


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Just to clear something up- Switching to an aluminum radiator will NOT increase the cooling capacity of a cooling system, all other factors being the same (Ie SIZE). Aluminum is a worse conductor of heat than (most) factory radiator cores (usually copper). If theyre bigger in size, then they get some cooling benefits- otherwise, nada.

But wait sideways! Why do you always see them you may ask? Well a couple of reasons. For starters, lots of "race" cars run them, so they get brownie points for being race tech. Two, BLING, its hard not to see that silvery shiney piece of bling and not be impressed. So of course kiddies who dont know much go oh, it must be better for cooling- I want it! Anyways, so why do race cars run them? Because theyre lighter, a LOT lighter- and its a good way to save some weight. Depending on the size of what were comparing you can easily see a good 10-15 pounds of weight saved by swapping over to an aluminum radiator. Thats more weight than most cars save by swapping to those cheap Cf reinforced Frp hoods, for a lot cheaper, cfrfrp is not to be confused with actual carbon hoods- and again, most cases. Some cars save 30 pounds alone by swapping to even cfrfrp hoods. Then of course theres some that GAIN weight by swapping over)

Like someone mentioned before me helping air move through the radiator is going to be your best way to help cooling. Doing what you can to ensure air has to go through the radiator is a good example- Ie the shroud. Hood vents if in the right pressure area can make a HUGE difference. Air no longer gets forced into a pressurized engine bay, but has a happy way to vent into a low pressure area.

Now the question is- Why is this mod warranted? Whats your goal with the car? If you want some bling by all means go nuts with it. All depends on what you want and what you plan to do. As always, asking questions is encouraged. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.
DigiBunny
Posted: May 18 2010, 05:19 AM


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I didnt see oil cooler thrown into this mix yet, so I might as well suggest it.

My own Corolla cant handle constant tracking without it's oil temp spiking past the gauge's redlines, so that's one of the things I'm bent on.
impreza0109
Posted: May 18 2010, 06:38 AM


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add a vented hood, as i suggested earlier, though there are drawbacks to that.

1. if you're going to build a race car, it's all ok. but as an everyday car, don't, because you'll get pulled over by the 5-0 all the time, unless you live here in the philippines.

2. it may affect downforce. not sure if it could improve or worsen, as there are different factors to that.

3. i might be suggesting you the wrong thing the whole time, since i'm also new to understanding cars.

just listen well to those who know better and you'll be a-ok. =)

This post has been edited by impreza0109 on May 18 2010, 06:38 AM
Skv012a
Posted: May 18 2010, 07:52 AM


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Thanks for the input so far everyone. If I wasn't clear before, my thoughts on this are as follows- sure stock parts can handle stock power, but for how long? That time frame do I get to squeeze everything out of the car before it starts overheating?

Oil cooler sounds like a good idea; if stock radiator isn't going to do that good of a job, a bigger/lighter one perhaps.

I'm still learning these technical things and trying to plan from where to start upgrading.
Mr. Shine
Posted: May 18 2010, 02:19 PM


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Don't jump into it just because you think you need it, or want shiny parts.

Take it to a track day and see how it handles the conditions. If it starts getting noticeably unable to handle it, then upgrade as appropriate.
Steve
Posted: May 18 2010, 04:19 PM


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What are your plans with the car? I may have missed it in your Z thread.
Skv012a
Posted: May 18 2010, 07:11 PM


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Plan is to get a hang of RWD and its stock limits, then start hopping it up. If money opens up before all of that, think what would most likely be wanted down the line and get that done. I already know I'll most likely want wider/dest rims and tires for max grip. Would definitely boost the car few years down the line, so maybe some related upgrades that are affordable in the meantime.
sideways
Posted: May 18 2010, 11:37 PM


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QUOTE (impreza0109 @ Yesterday, 7:38 AM)
2. it may affect downforce. not sure if it could improve or worsen, as there are different factors to that.

I cant think of a single reason or a single example where a drop vent hood would HURT downforce. In every case i can think of it improves it. No matter how you look at it youre venting air out of the engine bay that would have otherwise been trapped in there.

QUOTE
sure stock parts can handle stock power, but for how long? That time frame do I get to squeeze everything out of the car before it starts overheating?


As long as its in working order, for the rest of the cars life. Theres no black magic behind how coolant systems work. Coolant is pressurized and flowed through a radiator regulated by a thermostat. As long as more heat is being removed through the heat exchanger than is being put in, itll work flawlessly. If parts go out, then you have issues, corrosion in the block/head, thermostat, gunk in the radiator/block fouling up the passages, etc. This falls into the category of "maintenance" however. For your set up, theres really no need to "upgrade" if the set up is stock. If youre doing something to throw in more heat to the system than it was designed to handle (ie youre making more power, are going to track the car HARD, etc) then consider upgrading. Otherwise, Meh.
Möbius
Posted: May 19 2010, 07:08 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ 7 hours, 31 minutes ago)
I cant think of a single reason or a single example where a drop vent hood would HURT downforce. In every case i can think of it improves it. No matter how you look at it youre venting air out of the engine bay that would have otherwise been trapped in there.



As long as its in working order, for the rest of the cars life. Theres no black magic behind how coolant systems work. Coolant is pressurized and flowed through a radiator regulated by a thermostat. As long as more heat is being removed through the heat exchanger than is being put in, itll work flawlessly. If parts go out, then you have issues, corrosion in the block/head, thermostat, gunk in the radiator/block fouling up the passages, etc. This falls into the category of "maintenance" however. For your set up, theres really no need to "upgrade" if the set up is stock. If youre doing something to throw in more heat to the system than it was designed to handle (ie youre making more power, are going to track the car HARD, etc) then consider upgrading. Otherwise, Meh.

I like it when sideways posts, the above post is a good example. smile.gif
DALAZ_68
Posted: May 19 2010, 10:37 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Yesterday, 11:37 PM)
I cant think of a single reason or a single example where a drop vent hood would HURT downforce. In every case i can think of it improves it. No matter how you look at it youre venting air out of the engine bay that would have otherwise been trapped in there.



As long as its in working order, for the rest of the cars life. Theres no black magic behind how coolant systems work. Coolant is pressurized and flowed through a radiator regulated by a thermostat. As long as more heat is being removed through the heat exchanger than is being put in, itll work flawlessly. If parts go out, then you have issues, corrosion in the block/head, thermostat, gunk in the radiator/block fouling up the passages, etc. This falls into the category of "maintenance" however. For your set up, theres really no need to "upgrade" if the set up is stock. If youre doing something to throw in more heat to the system than it was designed to handle (ie youre making more power, are going to track the car HARD, etc) then consider upgrading. Otherwise, Meh.

^...best post so far... happy.gif

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