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> Lets talk about what FFs can do..., Leave the drift debate at the door.
backalleyracer
Posted: Apr 6 2008, 11:55 AM


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i dont know what kind of racing it was...but i remember watching on the speed channel a long ass time ago

a race and some of the conterders where rx7, integras, civic, 300zx, and so forth

it was interesting, it was a full blow race cars, not street cars, just shells of the street cars, like jgtc status...but in america

anyway it was funny because the top 2 cars were a rx7 and a intregra and the kept switching positions between 1st and 2nd place. FF are no joke
Jardim
Posted: Apr 6 2008, 12:03 PM


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Im pretty sure a FF super car will NEVER exist. supercars tend to have very large engines and very high power which doest go right to the front wheels.(alone at least...points to the GT-R)
NismoTime
Posted: Apr 6 2008, 01:09 PM


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I said IMO that I wouldnt do it, I respect anyone who races an FF seriously, its just that I personally wouldnt do it. Basicly, "Besides, an integra would make a fine full on racing car, for racing against other similarly powered cars." yes similar powered, so would a miata, thats not what were doing here, im not trying to say that FF's arnet good cars to race in, im saying I wouldnt use one for racing, and my reasons are what I posted. I think you guys are confusing my comments for anti FF comments, they are only my opinions. One more thing, I have driven ff's, awd's and rwd's and they all have pros and cons, none can just all out win, I just perferred the rwd and awd platforms to the ff one ill say again, its only my opinoin.
Ditto_MK3Supra
Posted: Apr 6 2008, 01:27 PM


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QUOTE (Cyrus430 @ Today at 9:48 AM)
IMO racing is one thing... supercar is another.

I ask you guys the question, why is it more difficult for an FF to be a supercar? Weight distribution?

Basically, when you accelerate in an FF the weight is transfered to the rear-wheels creating more traction in the rear-wheels and taking traction away from the wheels that are being powered. The lack of traction on the front wheels that are driving the car will make it hard to control and you won't beable to accelerate as you would in beable to in a RWD or AWD. Although most of the cars weight is in the front of the car it will still understeer while you accelerate. In a race being able to take a corner quickly while following an efficient line and exiting at a high speed requires entirely different techniques than with an FR. Left foot braking is one of them which i'm sure EVERYONE who uses this message board knows of. When you brake, your cars weight is transfered to the front two wheels, increasing traction. Left foot breaking is turning whilst accelerating and braking. Peddle down, ease up, brake, accelerate, ease up, brake, etc. And can also be used in drifting if you apply the handbrake and release it. I posted a video on the last page of an EK9 Type R civic performing this kind of drift. The kid in the red EG6 from the Night kidz in the first season of Initial D also does this. (yes i just referenced Initial D, and yeah i know what i'm talking about and the techniques discussed in initial d are fairly accurate) FF also put alot of stress on the front wheels incase you guys didnt know (you should lol)

It is possible to make an FF supercar, but it would need LOTS AND LOTS of downforce. I mean a bigger wing than the GT-Four Celica or Supra MkIV. Huge canards and a gigantic splitter. It'd be really dumb. But I do like Type-Rs and FF cars are no joke on the track. All drive layouts are created equal. Drivers are not. FF, MR, RR, AWD, 4WD, and FR all have weaknesses and strongpoints. As do all cars. It's really all about preference I guess, but people who just go and say that an FF can't race, well they don't know anything about racing, or cars. I try not to discriminate against cars based on there drive layout or engine. Anyway I think I covered your question and then some. Sorry for the gigantic wall of text. Theres typos in there, i'm more than sure of it. Oh well this isn't some college essay or something like that so don't get all upset and b*tch at me about it, please.


Oh and, I'd love to see a Fit type-R. That would be awesome.

edit. Also oh okay thats cool then Nismo, i'm sorry if I came off as hostile at all. I understand entirely what you are saying. I thought you were trying to compare two entirely different types of cars. eh well thats all cleared. cheers everyone.

This post has been edited by Ditto_MK3Supra on Apr 6 2008, 01:29 PM
backalleyracer
Posted: Apr 6 2008, 05:13 PM


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i forget who, i think it was JUN

but someone made a honda fit with a k20 in it

i didnt see any thing about it being on the track, but that sounds like a beastly car already
ToyotaFan84
Posted: Jun 8 2008, 05:15 PM


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I'm glad this topic is here. I bought a 2001 Toyota Celica GTS a couple of weeks ago because my 1995 Ford Mustang got hydrolocked. I don't think I can really feel the difference in drivetrain, but I'm not really sure what to look for and how to feel it.

I really want to try the techniques listed here because I want to do autocross with this car but on top of switching from FR to FF I'm switching from Automatic to Manual so right now I'm working on making my shifting as smooth as possible.
rockyz
Posted: Jun 11 2008, 10:25 PM


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I do some spirited drives on local mountain roads with my 06 Toyota Highlander Limited (3MZFE FWD). Car comes with traction control and it activates all the time. So mostly I just turn it off. It's a bit slower than my FC, but since I don't have anything else now, it'll have to do. The softer suspension actually gives me a bit more confidence to go a bit faster on the bumpy roads. Torque steering and such could be avoided as long as you know how much you could push the car. When I drive, the car usually has four people and it weighs A LOT. It's really just how much you want to push it.

Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, it's all good. Have an open mind, it doesn't take much to go fast.
MetalMan777
Posted: May 20 2009, 11:31 PM


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My FWD can understeer. It weighs too much to have any issues with torquesteer. The chassis is too well sorted to oversteer ever. On the bright side I can leave black 11's despite the automatic transmission and traction control. That's one thing it can do.
Hugobest28
Posted: May 23 2009, 10:30 AM


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QUOTE (Jardim @ Apr 6 2008, 12:03 PM)
Im pretty sure a FF super car will NEVER exist. supercars tend to have very large engines and very high power which doest go right to the front wheels.(alone at least...points to the GT-R)

i'd have to agree with you to the point that there will probably never be a FF supercar for the fact that it's not as balanced as (for example) a FR, but don't you think it's just awesome to see a FF keeping up with another chassis layout? (mugen RR with the S2000)

But this leads to another question, how much hp do you need to have before having traction issues, for example, torque steer, understeer. FF is for Grip right?

So I guess anything FWD WILL have someway have traction issues at a certain range of power

BTW! as for the comment on the fit type R, look at this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-X72Jkhas

I just wanted to show you these videos too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHqRVqPQD-8

This CR-X is insane and crazy loud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScI_znoL5Kc...player_embedded

(turn down the volume)

This post has been edited by Hugobest28 on May 23 2009, 10:33 AM
Bubs
Posted: May 25 2009, 05:38 PM


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What can an FF car do?

Get me to work and back in relative comfort, handle well in all weather...

...uh...

There we go. wink2.gif

Cyrus430: Torque-steer. That is the main issue. tongue.gif
MattW
Posted: May 26 2009, 09:48 AM


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Don't forget the reverse donuts! Oh, and J-Turns are easier to do in FF's than Rear wheel drive cars.

This post has been edited by MattW on May 26 2009, 09:49 AM
sideways
Posted: May 26 2009, 05:02 PM


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Shoosh the lot of you tongue.gif Id gladly meet most of you at a autox with a crx, ef/g/k, Dc1, dc2, various celicas, cobalts, neons, etc, and show you what FFs can do tongue.gif
Spaz
Posted: May 26 2009, 08:21 PM


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QUOTE (sideways @ 3 hours, 19 minutes ago)
Shoosh the lot of you tongue.gif Id gladly meet most of you at a autox with a crx, ef/g/k, Dc1, dc2, various celicas, cobalts, neons, etc, and show you what FFs can do tongue.gif

They can be slower than my AWD!

JK. There're some ITRs that I could never even aspire to be faster than in my region.
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Tessou
Posted: May 27 2009, 12:36 PM


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user posted image

It's a joke, dammit. happy.gif
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JDMBoost
Posted: Aug 19 2009, 09:56 AM


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Before I say anything, drifting through a corner is slower than gripping through it. Proper braking, turning and acceleration will always be faster than drifting through a corner. Obviously driver skill is a factor, but in a field of virtually equally skilled drivers, this is the truth.

Now as for FF's, they are NOT inferior to FR's. Both layouts have there advantages and disadvantages. FF's have the ability to brake later when approaching a corner, therefore resulting in a higher turn-in speed but initial acceleration when exiting the corner is slower than an FR's. Also, the use of left-footed braking with an FF is advantageous over FR' within autocross. There are other advantages as well.

Overall, FR cars are the better choice for motor sports, but that still does not mean that FF layout cars are inferior to them. On the circuit, the Honda Civic and Integra Type-R's (both FF's) are extremely capable of holding their own against FR's.

When it all comes down to it, it's all about driver preference and skill.
Yoshida Seiji
Posted: Aug 19 2009, 10:18 AM


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sleepyawn.gif

YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jewg8tVIDCA )


Our shop car is the fastest FF sport compact in NC.

FF's can run almost 200mph in the 1/4th. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Yoshida Seiji on Aug 19 2009, 10:18 AM
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Aug 19 2009, 08:44 PM


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QUOTE (JDMBoost @ Today, 10:56 AM)
Before I say anything, drifting through a corner is slower than gripping through it. Proper braking, turning and acceleration will always be faster than drifting through a corner. Obviously driver skill is a factor, but in a field of virtually equally skilled drivers, this is the truth.

That's true in almost every scenario, except for a select few. If I'm not mistaken, a rally-style drift around a VERY tight corner with a small radius (almost as if the vehicle were pivoting ~180 degrees around a single point) will get you through the turn the quickest, though AWD cars will do this the most effectively, since you can make drastic changes in direction (almost doing a full 180 degree spin, rotating at a quicker rate) while the AWD will maintain more grip and help launch you out of the exit. (Ken Block has done something like this in both of his videos, where he goes around a single cone in such a manner.) With anything short of a perfect driver, a RWD car won't be able to go through that same corner carrying as much speed since it can't rotate in the same manner (and would do so later into the turn, as an AWD car would already be facing the exit upon entering the turn), even if you drift it, which would be quicker through that particular type of turn than grip driving since it would be miserably difficult. There's a high likelihood of oversteering and spinning out in that scenario with a RWD car.

QUOTE (JDMBoost)
Now as for FF's, they are NOT inferior to FR's. Both layouts have there advantages and disadvantages. FF's have the ability to brake later when approaching a corner, therefore resulting in a higher turn-in speed but initial acceleration when exiting the corner is slower than an FR's. Also, the use of left-footed braking with an FF is advantageous over FR' within autocross. There are other advantages as well.

But most FF cars suck around corners off of the showroom floor. Yes, you can make some FF cars handle pretty well, but with aftermarket support, you can make almost anything with four wheels reach a higher level of handling capabilities that is night-and-day compared with its factory setup. There are been very few cars that can live up to your statement in stock form, like the original Integra Type-R, Mini Cooper S and Chevy Cobalt SS Turbocharged off the top of my head. With mods, you can make a lot of other FF cars handle well, but only if it's a small, tight track like an autocross course, which is why they can do pretty well there.

QUOTE (JDMBoost)
Overall, FR cars are the better choice for motor sports, but that still does not mean that FF layout cars are inferior to them. On the circuit, the Honda Civic and Integra Type-R's (both FF's) are extremely capable of holding their own against FR's.

So... if FR cars are the better choice for motor sports as you admitted, then how are they not superior to FF cars overall? I'm sure there are situations where FF cars will have an advantage (i.e., autocross courses, driving in the snow, etc.), but being inferior does not mean that it is worse in every single category, only overall in terms of performance, which is pretty true. If it weren't, then we'd see high-performance FF cars, whereas it seems limited to four bangers or larger-displacement V-6 sedans that weren't intended for carving.

Autocrossing is just one type of competitive event out of many, and once you venture outside of that with a FF car, you will have a hard time keeping up with other performance-oriented cars of other layouts, assuming you have anything other than a more recent Type-R (which isn't sold in the U.S. anyway).
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Aug 20 2009, 12:17 AM


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FF's are better in the snow than FR.

My two cents?
ToyotaFan84
Posted: Aug 20 2009, 08:16 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ May 26 2009, 05:02 PM)
Shoosh the lot of you tongue.gif  Id gladly meet most of you at a autox with a crx, ef/g/k, Dc1, dc2, various celicas, cobalts, neons, etc, and show you what FFs can do tongue.gif

If I take my Celica to the track meet, I'll let you drive it and see what you can do with it.

This post has been edited by ToyotaFan84 on Aug 20 2009, 08:16 AM
MattW
Posted: Aug 20 2009, 09:38 AM


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QUOTE (WRX DEMON Type R @ 9 hours, 21 minutes ago)
FF's are better in the snow than FR.

My two cents?

To a competent driver, that's untrue. You cannot correct a slide in a FWD car as easily as a RWD car.

The FWD car will just keep pushing forward, where you can use judicious amounts of loud pedal to rotate a rear drive car out of a slide.
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Aug 20 2009, 01:38 PM


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I remember there being a long argument between two members who don't post on here anymore. LOL.
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Aug 23 2009, 05:36 PM


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QUOTE (ToyotaFan84 @ Aug 20 2009, 09:16 AM)
If I take my Celica to the track meet, I'll let you drive it and see what you can do with it.

Make sure you got the right tires
Filphil
Posted: Aug 24 2009, 12:52 AM


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The most undermined advantage of FF is the fact you, the driver, can feel every little input you make in more ways than a FR.

The braking feel and tire slipping are felt through the steering wheel accompanied by g's and the pedals. Other than this connection with the driver(which i'm not even sure was mentioned), I think everything's been covered in this thread.
1.6L4A-GE
Posted: Jun 12 2010, 06:02 AM


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I only like a few FF cars. (those made my honda, DC2, DC5, civic, Prelude etc:-)

I hate all other FF cars especially the french ones.. guns.gif
JKaiba
Posted: Jun 12 2010, 12:03 PM


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Why don't you like French FFs? :
YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJlqqvVj-jA&feature=player_embedded )


This post has been edited by JKaiba on Jun 12 2010, 12:03 PM

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