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Spend money. All of it. If you aren't going to go the route of getting in with people (or can't), then money is the only way. You foot the bill yourself, and then you have to be able to back your entry up consistently to get noticed and make yourself worth the investment of sponsors to make it even feasible to continue, let alone profitable.

Formula Ford is a better option... if you can succeed in open wheel you can succeed anywhere.

More than likely your only real option is going to be Lemons, or at best, Spec Miata...


But actually, you're better off just karting.

Oh, if you're in Europe than your chances are much better, so yeah, race in the Clio Cup or whatever. Japan has several similar series (March Cup, Vitz Race, 86/BRZ Race).

This post has been edited by Banken on Nov 18 2013, 03:32 PM

Why do you need to drive other cars? Master what you have, and the opportunities will come. If your substantially faster than your peers with a similar car, people will ask you to drive their car and show them what you can do with it.

It varies by region. In North America, it's Spec Miata. If you win, you'll get noticed and be given opportunities.

I am substantially faster than some of them, but people are still wary of letting others go full out with their car (especially without them in it), unless that person is a professional driver or darn close to it (ie, 10+ years racing experience). In my experience at least.

Being able to drive other cars helps you identify problems or things you could improve with your own car.

And I have already more or less mastered my own car (as it stands), which is why I would like to try driving something that has been set up by a professional.


You will never get into professional racing from club racing. It simply doesn't work that way. The only way to get noticed is to spend your own money or find a sponsor and race in karts at the national level, or the lowest level professional (ie, the people who run the teams are getting paid...and there might be prize money) car race you can. IE, the Playboy MX-5, Star Mazda, or the Skip Barber Formula series. None of which are what you would call affordable if you are of modest means.

But he's in Europe so it would be some other series entirely.

No offense, but I tend to think if you truly believe you have mastered your car, then you still have room to grow.

It is stupid to think there is not more speed in any given car - you can always go faster. Perfection doesn't exist, you just have to try to get closer and closer.

I drive damn near the same Scuderia everyday, and I still learn new things. My times reflect this as well. Racing is not linear, it is almost infinitely variable.

Your answer leads me to believe that you have not mastered your platform. Instead, you are just not aware that there is a higher level of performance that can be extracted out of it. If a professional driver were to drive your car, how much faster would they be? That should be your benchmark.

In reality, if you have truly mastered your own car, you should be faster than ANY professional in your car. You know the nuances, they do not. A professional's job is to determine the capability of the car, and then extract as much of it as possible, without knowing anything about the car beforehand. A typical driving audition is 1 or 2 hot laps. You better be able to determine how much on-throttle and off-throttle grip there is, how the aero changes the mechanical grip of the car, and how much you can brake within the outlap.

I can confidently say that I am faster in my own car than what 95% of "professional" drivers can run in a session. Yet, I know that I have not yet mastered my own car. There is still more that can be extracted. I can exploit the grip of my car to the point where I will overheat my tires in 1 hot lap. I rarely do more than 2 hot laps back to back, because any additional laps just aren't fast, when I'm trying to put down a lap time.

If you show that you have the skill and responsibility, you WILL be asked to drive. This is my version:

I give people ride-alongs all the time. Some of these are drivers, some are +1s, some are just spectators. However, because I'm always giving rides (didn't bother me since I was just trying to get seat time) I eventually developed a reputation for being friendly and never turning down a request for a ride along. This in turn resulted in people that I gave rides to asking me to show them what their own car can do. Even when I explain to them that it's an unfamiliar car, they typically insisted, even if I were "taking it easy".

That snowballed into me constantly being asked to drive other cars, and then developing a reputation for "someone you can ask to drive your car to see what it can do", which led to me having the opportunity to drive all sorts of cars including exotics. I asked some of these people if I can put on a gopro to record my driving, and that eventually led to other opportunities.

This was all over the course of less than 18 months. I've been driving on track for just over 3 now, and in the last year, I've virtually never driven my own car at the track, unless I specifically take it with that in mind. I compete in multiple time attack series, usually co-driving other cars to facilitate my entry into the series in question. I typically trade suspension/aero setup and/or coaching for the seat time in their car. It's usually a better trade for them, since I rarely do more than 4-5 laps anyways, so the wear is minimized.


The truth in motorsport is that it's all about money. VERY few people are paid to drive. Most seats in professional series are purchased, not paid.

I was about two seconds slower over 4.2 track (where laptimes under 2 minutes with a production car are very fast) than a professional Super GT driver. (Actually it was one second, but I was driving by myself...). It was mostly his line and the quality of his braking, but I think if I had driven first (with the freshest tires and less heat in the engine) the times would have ended up being about even.

I did, of course say, more or less. And I said as the car stands. There are a few issues that need to be sorted before it will go much faster than I already have reliably. Mostly bushings, brake lines, and other maintenance stuff related to how crisp the response is... plus I need a new engine (I'm basically running on three cylinders). Let's just say I'd gain more time from dialing in the suspension than improving my driving as the car stands.

My fastest lap always inevitably ends up being my first hot lap. Well, that's backwards actually...

The primary reason I want to drive other cars is actually just because it's fun and costs less money But there are definitely things to be gained by driving other cars. Imagine if someone had only driven a GT-R their entire career? They would hardly become a well-balanced driver. Someone who had only driven a Miata would be good at corners but would be lacking on braking, and wouldn't be able to move right up into a formula car because the power and the downforce is something they had never experienced.

I also think you guys are over-thinking the word "master." Obviously there's always more time that can be wrung out of a car (cars operate on the microscopic level, humans can only control them in terms of millimeters), but when course conditions and the weather affect your lap times more than the way you're driving, that's what I call more or less mastered. If you can drive your car faster than a professional driver who has been racing since childhood and drives cars that are twice as fast, I'd call that mastered. Of course, there are different levels to mastery. Especially in terms of consistency.

You can always ask... surprisingly people rarely say no.

I got to drive an 86 (automatic) at my last race, and was offered a drive in another MR2 and an Altezza race car one event before that, but for various reasons I wasn't able to take them up that time. But either time it was just for a couple laps. Not the same as someone asking you to do a time attack in their car.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my best time in the wet on my home course was faster than Keiichi Tsuchiya in an NSX Type S (...with tires from like 10 years ago). Just saying

This post has been edited by Banken on Nov 19 2013, 11:57 PM

apples and oranges.... apples and oranges.

Are there things that, as a driver, you could practice on public roads that could translate over onto when on a track? If so, what are they? I get so bored driving that I just want to practice something to kill the boredom.

This post has been edited by Cyinide on Nov 20 2013, 01:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Koj_Bk8qSQ

This lap was my personal best the last weekend in Istanbul Park.

I'm still trying to learn the course, but which points do you think I can improve? I know my car is underpowered (100hp) for such a track, but I'm trying to focus on my driving rather than spending money on parts.

My tires were not very good on this day, I had 2009-made Potenza RE050-A's with 14.000km's on them.

Shifting (especially downshifting) and steering. Maintaining a constant speed helps develop accelerator control, and stopping a given spot helps develop braking skill. In winter, you can develop a good sense of where you wheels are (VERY important) by running over clumps of snow (of anything else that's safe to run over). This is especially important for your opposite tire (unless you're driving a Mclaren F1). Driving on snow can also be fun because you can drift at very low speeds. And it doesn't leave skid marks.

Dr.Ift,

Not bad, but we can't see your hands or where you're looking.

You could have been a bit more aggressive at 1:15 and you completely missed the apex at 2:00.

Are you going full throttle at 2:18? I assume yes, in which case it's fine. If not, you probably could have with the right line.

You turned in too early at 2:40. Don't let other cars dictate the way you drive. Look past them and only watch them with your peripheral vision.


That is a REALLY nice track. I wish we had more of them like that in Japan. Fuji Speedway is too far away for me...

This post has been edited by Banken on Nov 20 2013, 01:37 AM

Basic technique. At some point, you will not be able to safely "practice" cornering, etc on public roads, but you can always revmatch, heel-toe, double clutch downshift, etc.

You're squaring the corners off too much. Focus on smoothing out your corners to maximize the radius, to carry more speed. Also, your tires have more grip. Exploit it.

By that standard, I'm 6+ seconds faster than Gan-San in a Ford GT at WSIR, in the BRZ...

This post has been edited by psychoazn on Nov 20 2013, 02:39 AM

Thanks for the comments, the circuit was used until the last year as an F1 circuit, but the locals were unable to get in there, so there were absolutely NO track days. This year, it got bought by a car leasing company, and they started to have track days. This is my 2nd track day, and I'm trying to get better with both the circuit and the car. I guess it's time to pop out the REVSpeed videos again!

I'll remember to attach a second camera to shoot the inside of the car next time.

Thanks again, I'll try to concentrate on these points the next time. The thing is, I don't have any tread left on my tires, so the next time will be on different ones. I'm thinking maybe Michelin PS3's, or Kumho KU36XS's.

The EU version of the Fiat 500 has an unswitchable ESP which all the time interferes with the cornering. It also cuts the ignition if you try to left foot brake, so at the end of a session you always have catastrophic understeer.

This post has been edited by Dr.Ift on Nov 20 2013, 03:37 AM

Gan-san drove a Ford GT at WSIR?...

Here you go:
Gan-san drives on Williw Springs with Ford GT

Not bad.

hey i have a car do amy one.want to buy.it or.want to.see it?

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