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> Limited Slip Differential discussion
sileighty_00
  Posted: Jan 14 2004, 09:16 PM


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Just wondering what kind of LSD is used most for drifting. What are the advatages/disadvantages of each kind?

This post has been edited by sileighty_00 on Jan 14 2004, 10:22 PM
VRr1FD
Posted: Jan 14 2004, 09:32 PM


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helical, or "torsen" (quaif brand also) are great for handling, but they don't lock the rear end. the rely on their "helical" gears to multiply the torque the "slip" wheel is putting down and put it to the "grip" wheel.

if one wheel is putting down no torque at all then the drip wheel has no torque either, it can only multiply, and 0 x anything is 0. but because the torsen diff reacts instantly to torque transfer, it is much better than a viscous type diff and much smoother than a clutch type diff.

the torsens weak point is what gives it it's strong point though. the many small gears around it have a tendancy to blow themselvs up on hard drag launches in hi power cars. and for drifting, when you often want a locked rear end to keep sliding, i think most will recomend the clutch type.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

This post has been edited by VRr1FD on Jan 14 2004, 09:32 PM
sileighty_00
  Posted: Jan 14 2004, 09:35 PM


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The only problem that I can see with the clutch type is that it will wear out quicker with constant abuse. I wonder what most D1 cars have? Probably clutch since they most likely don't pay for the new parts and such.
VRr1FD
Posted: Jan 14 2004, 10:16 PM


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alot of clutch type can be rebuild though. other than the wear out factor, their engagement is, of course, on/off. so for normall driving it's not quite as comfortable or quiet in some cases, and of course, for auto x it's also a bit of a compromise, but for drag and drift it'd be great.

alot of clutch types can be set at assembly for what slip ammount they will lock at. and you can get them in 1, 1.5 or 2 way. though for street, strip and even drifting use you'd probably not want a 2 way (slip ratio locking no matter the engine load).
sileighty_00
  Posted: Jan 14 2004, 10:42 PM


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Here is some good basic information that I found about the basic parts of any LSD


Case

This is the big cast piece to which the ring gear bolts. It is actually two parts, the major portion of the case and an end-cap to hold all the parts in. The end cap is held on by four countersunk Phillips-head machine screws. The inside of the case has four large grooves in it that run parallel to the axle centerline. The ring gear bolts go through the end-cap and the case and are threaded into the ring gear.

Side Gears

The side gears in the LSD are a bit different from regular side gears but they do the same thing. They have a splined hole in the middle that mates with the splined ends on the axles. They also have a "shoulder" on the back side (away from the teeth) that has six grooves or notches parallel to the axle centerline. The tabs on the Friction Disks and Spring Disks fit into these notches.

Pressure Rings

These are two large cast pieces that sit inside the case. They have four tab-type protrusions around the outside that fit into the grooves in the case. They also have v-shaped slots where the ends of the Pinion Shaft sit

Pinion Shaft

This is the pivot shaft for the pinion gears. The middle part of the Pinion Shaft is flat on two sides. The pinion gears sit on the round portion. It is different from a regular pinion shaft in that the ends have flat areas machined on them in a v-shape. These flats sit in corresponding notches in the Pressure Rings.

Pinion Gears

These do very much the same thing as regular pinion gears. They pivot on the pinion shaft and sit between the side gears. In a regular differential they are also referred to as "spider gears."

Friction Disks

These are round flat ring-like steel disks that go inside the case.The disks have 6 round tabs towards the inside that fit into the grooves in the back of the side gear. They come in several thicknesses, 1.75 mm, 1.85 mm. and 2.00 mm being the most common

Friction Plates

These look very much like the Friction Disks, except that they have four round tabs towards the outside. These tabs fit into the grooves inside the case. The plates come in the same thicknesses as the Friction Disks.

Spring Disks and Spring Plates

Some LSD units have these and some do not. They are like the Friction Disks and Friction Plates except that they are dished instead of flat. The technical name for this is a Belleville spring. purpose is to give the LSD a more progressive action

"The Stack"

This is how the plates and discs look when they are assembled onto the back side of the side gear. You can see how they alternate, how the tabs on the plates line up with the tabs on the pressure ring and how the tabs on the discs line up with the slots in the side gear





Pics of each of these parts will be up as soon as I can get them to be

This post has been edited by sileighty_00 on Jan 14 2004, 10:49 PM

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zeo
Posted: Feb 1 2004, 11:09 PM


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D1 cars all use clutch type LSDs because they won't slip. All the drivers prefer it to all other forms of LSD. I forgot the specifics, was a long running post on Club4ag. I have a Kaaz 2 way LSD on my 86 and it's fine, but you will feel the clutches kicking in, even at low speed. Also gotta realize it puts stress on your driveline, so it will shorten the lifespan of those parts as well. Speed isn't free.
Indecisive
Posted: Feb 1 2004, 11:11 PM


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well clutch type LSDs you don't have to wait for it to activate. with VLSD or Viscous you gotta wait for the fluid. Clutch type is all mechanical..but then you gotta spend more time and $$ maintaining it too.
Joeyfeets
Posted: Feb 11 2004, 11:04 PM


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interesting.... i know my ride has a stock LSD. How can u tell if it needs rebuilding? Is there some better type of nissan LSD i can swap in? i never really thought about upgrading/modifying the LSD until yall mentioned this. Is there a lot of aftermarket LSD for diff applications? (other than 240's, i.e. 300's wink2.gif)
sileighty_00
  Posted: Feb 12 2004, 01:45 AM


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I know that NISMO makes an LSD for some cars, but bet on spending some major $$$ for that stuff.
TireSlip
Posted: Feb 12 2004, 11:30 AM


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QUOTE (VRr1FD @ Jan 14 2004, 09:30 PM)
helical, or "torsen" (quaif brand also) are great for handling, but they don't lock the rear end.  the rely on their "helical" gears to multiply the torque the "slip" wheel is putting down and put it to the "grip" wheel.

if one wheel is putting down no torque at all then the drip wheel has no torque either, it can only multiply, and 0 x anything is 0.  but because the torsen diff reacts instantly to torque transfer, it is much better than a viscous type diff and much smoother than a clutch type diff.

the torsens weak point is what gives it it's strong point though.  the many small gears around it have a tendancy to blow themselvs up on hard drag launches in hi power cars.  and for drifting, when you often want a locked rear end to keep sliding, i think most will recomend the clutch type.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

its recommended if there no car movement and all wheel spin to apply the brakes, simulating the car's pushing off of the ground then the other wheel will multiply that
Joeyfeets
Posted: Feb 16 2004, 10:36 PM


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QUOTE (sileighty_00 @ Feb 12 2004, 01:43 AM)
I know that NISMO makes an LSD for some cars, but bet on spending some major $$$ for that stuff.

$$$$???? dam, forget it then. mayeb ill do a stock swap from anotehr Z. or get this one rebuilt.
Neo Xian Wu
Posted: Feb 17 2004, 01:40 PM


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i would weigh the cost of the rebuild versus a new unit and labor. and also, the performance of the stock unit compared to aftermarket.
VRr1FD
Posted: Mar 22 2004, 03:46 PM


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QUOTE (TireSlip @ Feb 12 2004, 11:28 AM)
QUOTE (VRr1FD @ Jan 14 2004, 09:30 PM)
helical, or "torsen" (quaif brand also) are great for handling, but they don't lock the rear end.  the rely on their "helical" gears to multiply the torque the "slip" wheel is putting down and put it to the "grip" wheel.

if one wheel is putting down no torque at all then the drip wheel has no torque either, it can only multiply, and 0 x anything is 0.  but because the torsen diff reacts instantly to torque transfer, it is much better than a viscous type diff and much smoother than a clutch type diff.

the torsens weak point is what gives it it's strong point though.  the many small gears around it have a tendancy to blow themselvs up on hard drag launches in hi power cars.  and for drifting, when you often want a locked rear end to keep sliding, i think most will recomend the clutch type.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

its recommended if there no car movement and all wheel spin to apply the brakes, simulating the car's pushing off of the ground then the other wheel will multiply that

yep, i think that's in the manual of the new hummers too, since they use torsens.
Neo Vash
Posted: Mar 29 2004, 03:44 PM


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Yeah plan on spending a good 800$ on a LSD. Thats how much a good one cost Kaaz, Nismo,... any brand. Kaaz works better than a Nismo though. Kaaz can take more abuse. No one said Drifting was cheap.
sideways
Posted: Mar 30 2004, 03:18 PM


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Id rather get one outa a junk yard for a few hundred, they work just as good lol.
Neo Vash
Posted: Mar 30 2004, 03:30 PM


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Yeah thats true gts, but then how long is it going to last? $800 is alot but well worth it.
sideways
Posted: Mar 30 2004, 07:48 PM


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Yaaa, this post sucked

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 8 2004, 05:29 PM
Neo Vash
Posted: Mar 30 2004, 08:01 PM


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You lost me half way through thier with the hooker and racing seat and cheap hooker and good.... yeah
Rayp
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 05:19 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Mar 30 2004, 03:18 PM)
Id rather get one outa a junk yard for a few hundred, they work just as good lol.

My 86 had a "junk yard grade" LSD. It was worn. Still worked and did a better job than an open diff, but could not hold the full torque of the engine. Could not enjoy the full potential of the car.

One advantage of having an FR is the rear differential isn't too difficult to service. LSD can be rebuild cheaply, and i'm sure it's simple enough to do it yourself. So spending the 800$ would be a one time expense, afterward it's probably as cheap getting it rebuild than finding another used LSD and having it installed.
sideways
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 05:32 PM


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Im bored, and since Rayp revived this- ill do a quick "lames" LSD guide.

You got 3 basic LSDs to know.

1 way,
1.5 way,
2 way.

When an lsd is "Activated" it applies equal power to both the inside and outside wheel.

1-way. Tihnk of this as a 1.0 (youll know why later)

A 1-way lsd only "Activates" while it is accelerating.

1.5 way actives while accelerating and decelerating. But while decelerating, it only aaplies half the power to the inner wheel (thus the .5)

A 2-way applies even power to the inside and outside wheels while both accelerating, and decelerating.
Rayp
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 06:40 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Sep 8 2004, 05:32 PM)
1 way,
1.5 way,
2 way.

Drifters use either the 1.5 or the 2 way ones. Personnaly i prefer the 2 way as it's just as easy to get the rear loose while accelerating as it is while slowing down. Though many drifter prefer 1.5 because easing the throttle cancel their drift so it's safer for them.
sideways
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 07:21 PM


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Profesional and high end drifter prefer the 2 way- it keeps the tires spining the same speed pretty much the whole time.

"Amateurs" have a much easier time with the 1.5 way
HorizontalMitsubishi
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 08:05 PM


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what kind of diff does the gts have on it stock?
Toshi
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 08:22 PM


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drifters usual have adjustable diffs that are set between a 1.5 and 2 way lsd setting, depending on course they change the setting. I know all the silvias in the series use the NISMO GT-Pro its preety cool, adjustable. I want to get a kaaz adjustable 2 way. 2 way sucks driving on the street becase the lock is so shitty and you sorta always have to have the ass out good fro drift and drag not so good for autocross. I like the 1.5 way the best. best balance it can drift and it can be good fro grip driving
sideways
Posted: Sep 8 2004, 08:40 PM


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The corolla Gts has a 1.5 way stock

As for the adjustable lsd thing- meeeh, not really.. thats more of a race car thing then a drifter thing. A HUGE majority of the D1 drifters use 2-ways, with only a few using 1.5s

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