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> The New Theory on FF Drifting.
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 01:52 PM


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Well as a matter of fact FF drifting is possible. Drifting a FF takes a very very skilled drifter because it takes advanced techniques to drift a FF. Most people dont drift with a FF because of the difficulties that lie ahead, so they stick with thier rather easyier FR drifitng cars. But FF is possible its a matter of using your brake and gas to hold the drift and regain control in the end of the drift. To Drift a FF you are probably skilled. You may call it "ass dragging" but in all actuality you are drifting. Sliding and drifting are two diffrent things. And if you get the meanings that relate to a car drift you will see that a FF car falls right in the Drift catagorey. I look for a while for imformation on this and i found it. The fact that you people let Karasac tell you thiers no such thing as drifitng and you all just followed him and said thier "is no FF drifitng", well iI hate to brake it to you, but your wrong. So all you FF drivers out thier keep practicing, remmeber dont use your E-Brake because using that will not be a drift. You must learn to initiate it with the foot brake. The best way to drift your FF is the drift at the Exit of a corner. Your car my slow down dramaticlly if your line isnt prefect if you try to apex the corner. But if you want to have fun and dont care about the race by all means drift the hell out of that corner.

Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 02:56 PM


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Here's a post from karasac a while back talking about how FF arent real sports car.

QUOTE
i disagree, if that were the case then y is it that most "real" sports cars r FR? FF suffer from severe understeer.


Well I hate to brake it to you Big guy but, well, alot of rally cars are FF cars, and the fact that they almost have to drift a corner shows that FF can drift. Another fact that i thought you whould like to hear. ANd if you say that iam a liar here is the 1993 Honda Prelude (a year older than my brothers) ralley car.
user posted image

Here is another picture of a FF
user posted image

I hope this proves to you that FFs can drift. If it still dosent change your mind i will continue to try to convince you that it is possible to drift a FF. The fact that you guys go to people who ask who to drift a FF and you you tell them "YOU CANT DRIFT A FF" or "HAVENT WE ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT YOU CANT DRIFT A FF STUPI" ive heard these exact words. I just want to say that the people who said that and didnt even look to see if it was possible, go try something new and stop following what other people say. I think that the fact that Karasac said it wasnt possible you guys just doubted it right thier. Oh and before you say that its impossible to initialte the drift without the e-brake, its not my brother has accomplish doing it with the foot brake. Thats all i have to say, I will be waiting for you replies and what you have to say.


Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 03:21 PM


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Here's some morew pictures for you satisfactory
user posted image

heres a good one of a drift

user posted image

heres a 1980 scooby hatchback (this is a FF too)

user posted image


heres another pic

user posted image

well thiers some more pictures i got.
bunta_boi
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 03:42 PM


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thas what i say bro! me thinks that saying an FF is 'ass-dragging' is juss a show of denial....wut if FF drift is different from FR drift? juss like apples and oranges...two different things....they look the same, about the same size...but the apple wont ever taste like the orange or vice-versa....unless u change it genetically tongue.gif
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 03:44 PM


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Iam glad to see that someone else here agree's with me that FFs can drift. Its been done. And my brother can initiate the drift with the foot brake. He is making great progress with his FF.
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 03:59 PM


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heres a FF civic a drift sessions. Now if it really wasnt a car drifting whould they let him in and call him a drifter?

user posted image

Jason Tam-Hoy's Honda Civic. Jason is one of the
only front wheel drive drifters at the Drift Session. He will
slam his car into second gear and bang the revlimiter all the way
through the course. Unlike most people who use their revlimiter
to keep their engine from blowing up, Jason uses his to
keep his engine at sustained high RPM.


thier was also a Acura Integra thier too. My car biggrin.gif
Indecisive
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 04:13 PM


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Rally is different. when we talk about drift here we're talking about asphalt. it's easy to break out your rear in the dirt or mud...I'm sure all of us has done this at least once before. I'm not saying that you can't drift an FF. but FR is clearly the best for Drifting because of the power advantages of FR, the balance, and the weight transfer capabilities unlike an FF whose weight is planted mainly in the front.
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 04:17 PM


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Yes i will agree with you that FR cars are more erelevant for drifting. And i know rally is sort of diffrent. But then thier is drift session were many FF drifters go to. But what make's me mad is when people ask if you can drift a FF and people like Jayson just tells them straight up "that it is impossible to drift a ff and to get a FR" when he dosent even know for sure. I just want it to be known that you can drift a FF and that it is possible. Lots of people want to know if it is. And i am releving them of thier thoughts if they bought the right car. Yes drifitng a FF may be harder, but when you do it you should have mpore respect.

Indecisive
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 04:29 PM


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it might take more skill to drift an FF but in a race between two highly skilled drifters, FR and FF the FR will win hands down. it takes a lot more effort to drift an FF therefore it will be slower.
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 6 2002, 04:32 PM


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Not necesarliy. The FR miught have the uper hand but the FF does have a chance of winning. If you were to race a FF you whould not enter the drift in the beggining but at the Exit. So naturally the FR will take longer to drift the corner will the FF will pass him then drift a fast exit.
FWD,RWD,AWD
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 06:15 PM


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I've abandoned the drift 'term' a while ago because of the many people that jump at the chance to comment (usually negatively) at a certain layout. FWDs, RWDs, and AWDs all have their perspective advantages and disadvantages, and all of these layouts are capable of going FAST in straights and corners regardless of the surface.

There are very many other driving techniques that shave times that just aren't as popular
ImprezaSTi27
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 06:38 PM


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Just get an AWD car. Everyone should drive one.

I'm biased. laugh.gif

Alex
Akain
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 07:39 PM


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Yes, FF's can drift. Yes it is possible to break traction on the rear tires of an FF, and maintaing a drift through throttle control. This is called "Tray drifting"

Happy, you are correct in that case. But as to a real drift, look at the laws of physics:
"See with a rear wheel drive car power is coming from the back so that basically means that you can slide the tail out and control the movement by countering with the front wheels. With a front wheel drive both the power and countering wheels are up front so it eliminates the possibilty of drifting grouped turns"

If you road race, and participate in SCCA events and autoX, etc., you should know 2 basic principles:
1. FWD cars experience understeer
2. RWD cars experience oversteer

Now, lets look at the definition of drift from Neo Vash's source for the possibilities of FF drifting: Driftsession.com:
"Drift
To cause a vehicle to exceed its tire?fs limits of adhesion, exhibiting a lateral slip, resulting in an oversteered condition."

next comes countersteering to maintain your drift THROUGHOUT the turn and not just at the exit:
"Countersteer
Corrective steering used to balance and maintain an oversteered condition. (turning the steering wheel in the opposite direction of the turn once the vehicle starts to oversteer)"

Now we all know what drifting is. Now in an FF car, try swinging it in an oversteered condition as you enter a corner, countersteer with the same tires that are providing you power which help continue the drift, countersteer to maintain your "oversteered" condition, and watch your car either fishtail or spin out of the track.

How bout this: From my experience at drift lessons in Japan at an amateur run at Nikko circuit, Japan, here is the first drift they teach: Power Over, a.ka. "Doughnuts"

Its easy and its the first time a beginner drifter gets to break traction in the rear wheels by the use of a cars power only. Rev, drop the clutch, slam the gas, and turn hard into a direction of your choice and spin in circles till you pee yourself.

Now, try the same thing in an FF car....not the same. But it is possible with "tray drifting" since you can lock your rear tires on top of trays and have a continuous drift at a full circle. Other than that, it isn't possible.

Why is there an FF civic at a driftsessions event in hawaii: Because he paid, knows the other drivers, and has every right to be there if he wants. Can he wrap around the circuit faster than other FR drivers- YES. Is he drifting- NO! Does it ever show him drifting- NO! But does it call him a drifter- YES!

So whats the deal? The website defines e-brake drifting as a type of drift that is popular among FWD drivers. My response, you can define a drift any way you want. If you want to go around telling everyone that you can drift an FF, it is your responsibility to accept their opinions and defend you own. I respect the way Neo Vash defended his point, but I think he could have done it in a better way.

Show me one site that says FF's can drift and I will show you ten others that say you can't. Show me one picture of a fwd car in a "supposed drift" and I'll show you a Hot Version video of the drift king himself, Tsuchiya Keiichi, almost spin out trying to iniate a drift in a civic type R the same way he would with his hachi-roku.

Saying that it takes more skill to drift an FF than it is an FR is pointless. The two drifts can NEVER be initiated in the same manner.

And another thing, since when do people actually use drifting in a real race? Yes you can, but why would you want to, so you can put other drivers in harms way by placing your car in a position that it was not meant to be in. Drifting to me is controlling your car in a state where you're not supppose to have any control at all. You are on the edge of making a full turn, or spinning out, which in some cases, lead to fatality.

If there are people in here who actually know about drift competitions, tell me, "Are drift competitions about how fast you make a turn, which would relate to drifting?"

Drifting is a sign of a skilled driver, and is just exhibition. In very rare cases, a drifter can initiate a drift to gain an advantage in a race, but it is rare. It's funny when I see people who don't know what drifiting is about, watch a track race in japan, whether its on a video or if they're actually at the event and say, "How come none of the cars are drifting?"

But don't get me wrong, one who can drift has to have a high level of driving skill, which would play a factor on the track. As for FF drifting, call it what you want, but I say bring your FF to a drift competition at ebisu, or nikko, and you'll realize that you are in the wrong place when you're surrounded by nothing but FR's and the occasional AWD.

Look in any japanese drift mag also, and you won't see a single FF car.
Drifting is a sub-culture in japan that is moving to the US and growing in popularity, maybe someday real drifters will acknowledge that FF's can drift, or maybe FF's will create a sub-culture of their own. But trying to place FWD sliding and RWD drifting together is wrong because THEY ARE NOT THE SAME TYPE OF CARS.

Besides, there is already a new sub-culture for FF's and "drifting"= Tray drifting.

Jayson
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 08:30 PM


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I think Akain summed it up best. It is possible to slide with an FF car, but you will never be able to do consecutive non stop drifts. You physicaly need the rear wheels to produce the power, and you need them to sustain a drift. Any car can start to slide, but to maintain it you need to have the rear wheels spinning.

I'm just making this short for now. If any one wants to discuss this more hit me up on AIM.

laters
Jayson
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 08:32 PM


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p.s. Your a Honda fan boy, right? laugh.gif

vtecstyl3z
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 08:44 PM


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those pic are nice biggrin.gif can someone tell me is RSX a FF or FR ? my homboi told me that they replaced the RSX as the prelude.

Jayson
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 08:52 PM


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I believe it's FF
ImprezaSTi27
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 09:00 PM


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It's FF, definitely. And I'm not sure if it's a Prelude replacement. I know Acura is Honda, but I think it's more of a replacement to the Integra since Acura is being like Lexus is to Toyota or Infiniti to Nissan and trying to go for a more luxury based car lineup.

While on the topic of Acura, have you guys seen the 2003 NSX? Very clean.

Alex
]{aya
Posted: Dec 6 2002, 09:25 PM


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its FF, ...all hondas/acuras are, exept for tha S2000 and the NSX
karasac
Posted: Dec 7 2002, 03:23 AM


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looks like i got in this a little late

my homie akain said it best, and let me say it again, FF's cant drift

the rsx was made to replace the integ, in japan they call it an integ

and almost anyone that says a FF can drift is a honda fanboy
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 7 2002, 08:24 AM


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Honda fanboy? No I was more like breed into honda. My father has been working on Hondas as a Mechanic before i was even born. So naturally i whould go to work with him and so i grew a love for hondas. After learning how reliable and efficient they are that is. And just because it is a honda dosent mean that its not FR. THiers many FR that honda has. The NSX, S2000, the Beat. ALot of cars in japan that america will probably not get are FR and honda makes them. And iam not going against FR at all. Infact my second car will probably be a trueno because i rather drift with 800 dollar car that dosent cost alot to fix are to buy. But all iam saying is that it is possible to drift a FF. you keep going into the laws of phsyics and crap. Well the laws of physics can be bent and they can be used to work with you dumb asses(manily speaking to Akain). And if your going to go by all the velocity crap well then you cant drift either. Because it directly says that the people who drift are young Japanese men in the early 20's and some middle age men. And dont even give me that gay technical term of tray drift. And yers it is possible to countersteer and shift your weight and all that other crap with your power in the front of the car. So before you talk shit Akain go try it yourself and make sure that it is not possible. The definitiaon of a drift is getting your self sidesways around a corner more then once at a time. And well guesss what a FF can do that.

Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 7 2002, 08:29 AM


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p.s - Oh yeah and Akain mabe you should read your post be cause your F**king contradicted yourself abotu 5 times.
Jayson
Posted: Dec 7 2002, 08:30 AM


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A drift is a CONTROLLED slide. You don't even need to be going around a corner, you can be going down a straight away and be drifting. If you show me a vid of an FF doing that then I will agree that an FF can drift. And don't mention any rally cars, because those are under completly different conditions. Hell, I can drift my friends ESI during the winter before they plow the road, it's just like rally cars.

laters
Neo Vash
  Posted: Dec 7 2002, 08:44 AM


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Iam still looking for an a video but heres a picture to keep your mind wondering for a little bit.

here is a integra drifting.

user posted image

thier. I'll be back with more
Jayson
Posted: Dec 7 2002, 08:56 AM


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Not to be a dick, but that pic isn't helping much in my eyes, for all I know he pulled the E-brake at the end of the turn :/ so when you find a video let me know.

ciao

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