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> supercharged vs turbocharged
TRD-hachi-roku
Posted: May 24 2004, 09:36 PM


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LOLZ!!!!!!!!!! where did you get the twin turbo set u pfor the eclipse???
astrogameguy
Posted: May 24 2004, 10:10 PM


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a friend who owns a tranny shop and i put it together.
brandon
TRD-hachi-roku
Posted: May 25 2004, 09:22 PM


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ic...nice
Neo Xian Wu
Posted: May 26 2004, 11:05 PM


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astro? pics, please.
S13 GTO
Posted: May 27 2004, 03:57 AM


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I would also like to note that if your NA engine runs a high compression ratio you might want to look into lowering it if you want to SC or turbo it.
the dude
Posted: May 27 2004, 07:19 AM


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QUOTE (astrogameguy @ May 24 2004, 08:49 PM)


i only go with twin turbo applications, because in theory and actuality it is the best. my eclipse with the twin turbo application will go from 0-120 in about 8-9 seconds depending on the shift methods.

brandon


Bullshit! There is no way you could or would want to TT an eclipse. If you did the whole DSM world would know about it. No one has ever TT an eclipse. I want pictures.

If you did it in a 1g or 2g eclipse it would be one mess of a job the way the 4g63 is set up. If you did it on a FWD v6 3g eclipse you would lose traction and there is no way in hell you would go 0-120 in 8 or 9 seconds. Unless you are a professional racer and can afford a insane suspension system

I want pictures!

This post has been edited by the dude on May 27 2004, 07:30 AM
[ Mizerok ]
Posted: May 27 2004, 08:53 AM


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Twin Turbocharging is CRAP. TTing a car brings a TON of troubles, plenty of turbo lag, not the same amount of power and response that you get from one huge turbo. Supercharging is sooooo much better that it kicks everything else in the nuts. TTing ANYTHING is not what you want to do, and people need to get off of the, "The more turbos I have the better" deal.
VRr1FD
Posted: May 27 2004, 10:01 AM


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QUOTE ([404 Error] @ May 27 2004, 08:53 AM)
Twin Turbocharging is CRAP. TTing a car brings a TON of troubles, plenty of turbo lag, not the same amount of power and response that you get from one huge turbo. Supercharging is sooooo much better that it kicks everything else in the nuts. TTing ANYTHING is not what you want to do, and people need to get off of the, "The more turbos I have the better" deal.

better tell porsche they are wasting time on the TT 911's then. grin2.gif

multiple smaller turbo's, aside from helping piping on V applications, aid responce because in a proper application there is less rotating mass than on a bigger single.

it's less to lower the spool range than it is for responce within the spool range and more power above. the entire point is for less lag, and it's rather effective.


however the point of diminishing returns on a straight 4 cyl engine is, oh, right around 2 turbo's. if someone really want's to get crafty they are free to do what they want, but if the gains were really worth the trouble on a 2L engine, i'd think alot more people would be doing it.

but BS without pics.

"supershcargers are usually put on engines that dont really need a high end kick, for example v6 and up.

turbo chargers are usually put on anything less than a v6. the idea is, v6 and up, you have quick hard torque at the beginning but your acceleration lacks, so the super charger comes in giving you that extra added boost. dont get me wrong, it still gives you power, but high end it is less powerful. a turbo, for most v6 and below, you usually have great accerleration but, when you get to 70-80 you start to slacken and accerlerate slowly."

-erm, no.
the dude
Posted: May 27 2004, 10:11 AM


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If you use 2 small turbos it will not help power because they both have the same flow rates. Both will run out of breath at the same time. A single turbo will always be most effective. If you dont want to deal with the lag get a ball baring turbo.
[ Mizerok ]
Posted: May 27 2004, 10:32 AM


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The thing that Porsche is thinking is that they already have an engine that owns all American and Japanese ass, which it rightfully does. They are adding the two "small" turboes to aid in the process of annoying the hell out of people that want to race. Also be noted that I believe the two sequential turbos produce less heat then the much larger one, which is also what Porsche is looking for, seeing that their cars are used for autocross and need to produce as less heat as possible but keep the power output coming. For street and beginner track purposes, as well as drifting, I believe that the single turbo setup is better seeing that they're less expensive of a setup and easier to maintain. Um, in the more professional settings, twin turboes are used because the companies can afford the two spinning things of doom.
astrogameguy
Posted: May 28 2004, 04:39 AM


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ok. soon as my cam comes back from sony for sucking, i will get you pictures with bread and milk.
brandon
VRr1FD
Posted: May 28 2004, 11:57 AM


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QUOTE (the dude @ May 27 2004, 10:11 AM)
If you use 2 small turbos it will not help power because they both have the same flow rates. Both will run out of breath at the same time. A single turbo will always be most effective. If you dont want to deal with the lag get a ball baring turbo.

no. if you double the turbo's you roughly double the air flow capacity. they don't run out of energy anywhere near the same time as one of them would. 1+1 does not equal 1.

FYI, most of the fastest skylines use high mount twins. not singles. these are drag cars too, well over 1k hp.

singles are great for simplicity, but if you are boosting so much you will need an awfully big compressor, which means more rotating mass. if you split the duty between two parallel turbo's then you are cutting each rotating mass, and therefor each turbo's inertia in half.


Porsche DID use single turbo's for a time on the 911, but decided that smaller twins would be more responsive.

-edit. the turbo's on the turbo 911's aren't sequential either. they are parallel.

This post has been edited by VRr1FD on May 28 2004, 11:59 AM
Knee Grow
Posted: May 28 2004, 01:50 PM


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<~~~Wishes he wasn't a automotive dunce!!! Must research more!! I wanna know how to tell what's going on in my new car when I get it, dammit!
the dude
Posted: May 29 2004, 05:55 AM


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QUOTE (VRr1FD @ May 28 2004, 11:57 AM)
QUOTE (the dude @ May 27 2004, 10:11 AM)
If you use 2 small turbos it will not help power because they both have the same flow rates. Both will run out of breath at the same time. A single turbo will always be most effective. If you dont want to deal with the lag get a ball baring turbo.

no. if you double the turbo's you roughly double the air flow capacity. they don't run out of energy anywhere near the same time as one of them would. 1+1 does not equal 1.

FYI, most of the fastest skylines use high mount twins. not singles. these are drag cars too, well over 1k hp.

singles are great for simplicity, but if you are boosting so much you will need an awfully big compressor, which means more rotating mass. if you split the duty between two parallel turbo's then you are cutting each rotating mass, and therefor each turbo's inertia in half.


Porsche DID use single turbo's for a time on the 911, but decided that smaller twins would be more responsive.

-edit. the turbo's on the turbo 911's aren't sequential either. they are parallel.

yes you would run out of energy. Take for example a small turbo like the T-25. It will max out at 5000 rpms around 15 psi. It doesnt matter if you have 2 of them. They are the same turbo they both will max out at the same time. If you are TT a 4 cylinder. Each turbo takes care of 2 exhaust ports (I think). How would that increase power? It's just making things more complicated.

Most of the fastest drag Supra's use 1 huge turbo.
VRr1FD
Posted: Jun 1 2004, 10:50 PM


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QUOTE (the dude @ May 29 2004, 05:55 AM)
yes you would run out of energy. Take for example a small turbo like the T-25. It will max out at 5000 rpms around 15 psi. It doesnt matter if you have 2 of them. They are the same turbo they both will max out at the same time. If you are TT a 4 cylinder. Each turbo takes care of 2 exhaust ports (I think). How would that increase power? It's just making things more complicated.

Most of the fastest drag Supra's use 1 huge turbo.

while 2 turbo's spooling off of the gas that would normally spool one of them, will hurt the initial spool thresh hold, once they are spooled into their efficiency they will be compressing twice the air.

the decrease in back pressure from the engine gas hitting only one of their turbines, will help alot in top end too as there is roughly half the restriction.

that added to the bonus you get from the smaller rotating masses is why parallel twins are great in applications where you can spool them. as opposed to just sticking on one huge turbo.
RakeRon
Posted: Sep 5 2004, 07:41 PM


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From what I've seen its all about setup with turbos and supers. Superchargers are great because of their zero lag time, but they're parasitic because you gotta have power to make power. Easy fix for this is an Underdrive pulley kit/idler pulley kit. Increasing PSI is the easiest on a super: put on a smaller pully on it and if need be a pulley kit & belt. Turbos are more effcient and put the highest boost, however, they suffer from lag time as we all know. Smaller turbo will cut the lag time, but will suffer from lower boost. Two small turbos can take the place of one large one puting out a combined psi rating of one at lower rpms. Or you can go hybrid twin turbo. One big for the highs, one small for the lows. If you got a 4agze you can also use both a super & turbo (a hybrid 4agze puts out 350hp+!!). Also intercooling is a must otherwise you run into detonation (for those who don't know, its when fuel ignites before the compression fase ends). For intercoolers you have a few options: Air-to-Air (most common), Liquid-to-Air, Spray (forget what its actually called but escentially nozzles mounted twoards an Air-to-Air intercooler sprays out a compressed gas like CO2 or Nitrous Oxide wich when released is extremely cold). Its all up to personal preference and what the car is gonna be used for which determines which one you should use.
ExiL3
Posted: Sep 6 2004, 04:54 PM


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ok i have a question, and its not from me, its from em and my friend arguing, he says that you can put a twin turbo on a 4 cylinder, and i thout thats impossible because i dont think theres enough cylinders for a twin turbo setup on a 4 cylinder.
sideways
Posted: Sep 6 2004, 05:16 PM


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To be blunt: Your friend is right, your wrong.

Peopel have also done a Supercarger and Turbo on a straight 4 (Common to do to the Aw11s, uses the super for initial "go" and then gets the power from the turbo as it spools up)

http://www.nopi.com/ndra/ndra_rc_pro4cyl.cfm

2nd paragraph talks about a twin turbo civic
ExiL3
Posted: Sep 6 2004, 05:41 PM


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WOW, never knew that thanks for clearing it up
AJS13
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 12:09 AM


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its hardly done, as 4 cylinders dont flow so much to really get them to go.
Subaru Legacys are 4 cylinder twin turbo, well they were. But they a really really shit to drive, talk about your slow over weight bad handling cars.
sideways
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 12:56 AM


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it can still be one- ive also seen some pretty good TT evos before (not talking bad translations from ID beofre)
AJS13
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 01:54 AM


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I said hardly done, I dout that its easy to find the right combination to work it. You cant just go along an throw on a second turbo, you would have to work out which would give you what you want.
But she looked 18 of..
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 11:27 AM


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yeah, someone explain why twincharging is crap... rolleyes.gif
sideways
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 11:41 AM


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Uhm, they get REALLY hot
But she looked 18 of..
Posted: Sep 7 2004, 01:44 PM


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So does a twin turbo setup or any sizable FI unit for that matter.

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