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Views: 2,901  ·  Replies: 24 
> What's the correct way to pump Non-ABS brakes?
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Oct 19 2009, 05:42 PM


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I'm driving my dad's 1979 Dodge Van at the moment. I'm assuming since ABS brakes are better it would be better for me to emulate ABS by manually pumping the brakes. Any advice is much appreciated.
Spaz
Posted: Oct 19 2009, 05:54 PM


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Nope, ABS actually extends your braking distance, and trying to pump as fast as you can extends it that much more, because your pumping will be slower. Now's a good chance for you to learn to threshold brake. wink2.gif
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88_7mge
Posted: Oct 19 2009, 07:49 PM


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The only point of ABS is to allow you to steer during panic braking situations. Because the pulsations allow the wheels to keep turning, therefore turning the wheels lets the car turn instead of continuing to skid to a stop. Pumping the brakes is really only necessary if you need to steer during a panic stop in a non-abs vehicle. when you start feeling the wheels lock up let off the pedal and then right back down until the wheels lock again...repeat. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DO THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT HAD PRACTICE, this is harder to properly master than heel-toe, i would suggest you find a large empty parking lot at nights to practice this in, if you feel the need to do so, if you typically drive an abs equipped vehicle, it would be pointless. However, for peeps like me with old ass cars that didnt have standard ABS like most cars, its good to know how to do. grin2.gif
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 12:16 AM


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QUOTE (88_7mge @ 4 hours, 26 minutes ago)
The only point of ABS is to allow you to steer during panic braking situations.

That's not the primary purpose; it's to prevent the wheels from locking up during a variety of braking situations, such as panic stops, braking on lower-grip surfaces (rain, snow, etc.).
sideways
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 02:03 AM


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Actually modern ABS systems are pretty god damn good, and some can (and do) do a better job of stopping that car than a human foot can. If youd made that claim about 10 years ago Id be 100% inclined to agree, but modern system have gone leaps and bounds over what they used to. Computers can now monitor and control traction better than people can.

As for you Yotafan- Like the others have said, dont do pumping. That would hurt your braking distance more than it would help. For cars with no abs you want to brake at the limit of traction that the tire can yield, and stay there. If your pumping your going to the limit (close, or beyond maybe depending on how hard you hit it), and then backing off, and then more, and then less, etc. Most abs are known to rapidly "pumps" the brakes because its the easiest (and very effective way) to allow a tire to rotate once its locked up. A sliding tire is a tire with no traction, no traction means youve no grip to stop. Etc.

This post has been edited by sideways on Oct 20 2009, 02:06 AM
zomgpow
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 04:37 AM


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I dunno, but I learned that repeatedly pumping the brakes would build pressure in the hydraulic lines, where the brake pedal will build up resistance, then it would lock up the brakes even at the slightest travel of the brake. Is this the brake booster at work?
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 05:52 AM


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Only time I pump the brakes on my cars is when I change their brake fluid. My RX-R has no abs, but when I'm braking, I'm able to tell right when the brakes are about to lock, and simply use less pressure.

However, to each his own. rolleyes.gif

[offtopic], ZOMGPOW, your sig pic is hilarious. LOL. [/offtopic]
Skv012a
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:20 AM


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Remember to use your newtype sense to foresee potential danger and act ahead of time wink2.gif
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:35 AM


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QUOTE (Skv012a @ 14 minutes, 33 seconds ago)
Remember to use your newtype sense to foresee potential danger and act ahead of time wink2.gif

That was so funny, I fogot to laugh. cool.gif

Jokes aside, please read, please learn.

http://www.driftingstreet.com/braking-tech...-threshold.html

To the op, I refer you to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking

and quote

QUOTE
In vehicles not equipped with ABS the following technique can be used to approximate threshold braking:

    * Press the brake pedal about half way in, as if you were braking normally.
    * Smoothly increase brake pedal pressure until wheels just start to slip and threaten to lock up. On dry, hard pavement you will start to hear a low-level squealing sound. On loose or slippery surfaces you will start to hear a low-level swashing sound. On all but the highest grip surfaces the front wheels will lock first by design in order to avoid oversteer.
    * Reduce brake pedal pressure by a small amount, enough to diminish the squealing or swashing sound and allow the almost-slipping wheels increase their traction again.
    * If more braking is desired, increase brake pedal pressure until the wheels threatens to lock up again, then release pressure, and so on.
    * All all times, avoid actual locking of the wheels. Note that on slippery pavement if you actually lock up the brakes you will have to lift your foot almost entirely to regain wheel rotation.


Then this
QUOTE

A human driver can perform one press-release cycle per second with practice. The ultimate goal is to achieve constant brake pressure and tire traction across the entire braking process.

However, if the surface is bumpy or uneven, a threshold braking traction of constant value might not be achievable, so varying brake pressure as the vehicle rolls over each obstacle becomes the default performance action.


So yeah, to each his own.

This post has been edited by WRX DEMON Type R on Oct 20 2009, 07:43 AM
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Oct 20 2009, 06:51 PM


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Thanks for the responses (especially yours Demon), very helpful.

Sub Topic:
Zomgpow, your sig is funny. XD
djmisio85
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:12 PM


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I wasnt sure if this post was serious at first blink.gif

I dont like to pass judgement, but judging from this post and some of your previous posts, I can only assume that you are a very inexperienced driver.... pinch2.gif not to say you are bad driver fear2.gif

If you drive normally, you should not need to worry about "how to emulate ABS"....under any circumstance which you present by yourself on the roads..... especially in a 1979 truck. If you are going to be racing said 1979 truck, then I could maybe understand why you asked....

As mentioned before, ABS only activates in panic situations.... when you really slam on the brake.

I have driven many non-ABS cars, including my current Evo, which we all know is a fast car, but not once have I locked up the wheels, even in the rain, with sports tyres.

Practice makes perfect. Just go out, drive, on a safe road, or parking lot, and see how the brakes react when braking hard. When I had to brake hard once in my gfs car, even though it had ABS, it slipped.... Had it been the evo, I would have stopped very smoothly.

I was talking to demon last night, how u dont need to pump like ABS, because an ABS pump is sooo much faster than a human leg can pump, keeping the same pressure..... you would do yourself more harm trying to pump, rather than just putting less pressure on the pedal.

Just for reference, an ABS system can pump about 20times per second.... id like to see your leg do that laugh.gif

Spaz
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:40 PM


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QUOTE (ToyotaFan84 @ 49 minutes, 30 seconds ago)
Thanks for the responses (especially yours Demon), very helpful.

You realize all he did was was post links to a couple sites detailing the suggestion I made in the very first reply to this thread, right?
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WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:49 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ 9 minutes, 1 seconds ago)
You realize all he did was was post links to a couple sites detailing the suggestion I made in the very first reply to this thread, right?

Yeah, but I was nice enough to post links. So hah. tongue.gif
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Oct 20 2009, 07:50 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ 9 minutes, 43 seconds ago)
You realize all he did was was post links to a couple sites detailing the suggestion I made in the very first reply to this thread, right?

Yes, I do realize that. However, since he took it a step further and laid out the information right in front of me, I found his post particularly useful (even though it was something simple enough that I could have done on my own).

If you must have your cookie, thank you for your initial suggestion, this topic wouldn't have been as successful without it.

QUOTE
I wasnt sure if this post was serious at first blink.gif

I dont like to pass judgement, but judging from this post and some of your previous posts, I can only assume that you are a very inexperienced driver.... pinch2.gif not to say you are bad driver fear2.gif

If you drive normally, you should not need to worry about "how to emulate ABS"....under any circumstance which you present by yourself on the roads..... especially in a 1979 truck. If you are going to be racing said 1979 truck, then I could maybe understand why you asked....

As mentioned before, ABS only activates in panic situations.... when you really slam on the brake.

I have driven many non-ABS cars, including my current Evo, which we all know is a fast car, but not once have I locked up the wheels, even in the rain, with sports tyres.

Practice makes perfect. Just go out, drive, on a safe road, or parking lot, and see how the brakes react when braking hard. When I had to brake hard once in my gfs car, even though it had ABS, it slipped.... Had it been the evo, I would have stopped very smoothly.

I was talking to demon last night, how u dont need to pump like ABS, because an ABS pump is sooo much faster than a human leg can pump, keeping the same pressure..... you would do yourself more harm trying to pump, rather than just putting less pressure on the pedal.

Just for reference, an ABS system can pump about 20times per second.... id like to see your leg do that laugh.gif


I would assume it was quite obvious but you're right I don't have much driving experience. My friend gave me a different description of ABS from what has been said in this topic which is why I had a misconception of ABS. I definitely don't plan on racing the van (it feels very unstable at 50 mph on the highway and I'm not THAT reckless). It's just because I assumed that pumping the brake manually would emulate ABS, I would decrease my stopping distance. I just figured I'd ask to make sure instead of doing something stupid since I've received a lot of helpful advice here in the past. At any rate I'm glad I asked and I'll definitely try to keep it at the limit of traction in the future.

And not that I ever plan on driving while on coccaine (or even try coccaine for that matter). But 20 times a second MIGHT be possible. =P

This post has been edited by ToyotaFan84 on Oct 20 2009, 08:03 PM
sideways
Posted: Oct 20 2009, 08:42 PM


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QUOTE (djmisio85 @ 1 hour, 29 minutes ago)
I have driven many non-ABS cars, including my current Evo, which we all know is a fast car, but not once have I locked up the wheels, even in the rain, with sports tyres.

Then youve never pushed hard enough wink2.gif Gotta go past the limit to find the limit.
djmisio85
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 12:01 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ 3 hours, 19 minutes ago)
Then youve never pushed hard enough wink2.gif Gotta go past the limit to find the limit.

Ill openly admit, that I dont drive my evo like a lunatic, but, to say that I havent pushed it, is a bit cheeky, just ask demon if you doubt my driving skills wink2.gif

Obviously, like I suggested to toyotafan, I have practiced driving in parking lots, in the dry, rain and even snow, which obviously involves braking...

My above statement, is meant under normal driving conditions.... not a parking lot...

Besides, i push other vehicles to the limit, such as karts or k-cars...(endurance dirt races.... just ask Demon about that aswell wink2.gif )

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Posted: Oct 21 2009, 12:39 AM


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QUOTE (djmisio85 @ 38 minutes, 0 seconds ago)
Ill openly admit, that I dont drive my evo like a lunatic, but, to say that I havent pushed it, is a bit cheeky, just ask demon if you doubt my driving skills wink2.gif


Besides, i push other vehicles to the limit, such as karts or k-cars...(endurance dirt races.... just ask Demon about that aswell wink2.gif )

I almost shat my pants that night. crying2.gif Why do you have to bring it up? pinch2.gif

And yes, he's awesome on the kart track. Just a few spots below local frequenters.

sideways
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 03:17 AM


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QUOTE (djmisio85 @ 3 hours, 16 minutes ago)
Ill openly admit, that I dont drive my evo like a lunatic, but, to say that I havent pushed it, is a bit cheeky, just ask demon if you doubt my driving skills  wink2.gif

Meh. I stand by my previous statement laugh.gif Never said youve never pushed it. Just havent pushed it enough if you havent gone over wink2.gif. Is there a little more to give? Maybe. Maybe not. Never know until you get there.

This post has been edited by sideways on Oct 21 2009, 03:19 AM
djmisio85
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 03:33 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ 15 minutes, 59 seconds ago)
Meh. I stand by my previous statement laugh.gif Never said youve never pushed it. Just havent pushed it enough if you havent gone over wink2.gif. Is there a little more to give? Maybe. Maybe not. Never know until you get there.

Well, Ive been "there" in the parking lots wink2.gif I never push myself 100% on the roads... And in the K-car dirt endurance racing, is being on 2 wheels enough to be classified as pushing hard enough? Me thinks so wink2.gif As for Karting...I push as hard as the kart lets me push it laugh.gif

Anyway, my point is, the OP shouldnt have to worry about trying to emulate ABS in his current situation smile.gif

Happy driving grin2.gif
Spaz
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 11:30 AM


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QUOTE (ToyotaFan84 @ Yesterday, 10:50 PM)
If you must have your cookie, thank you for your initial suggestion, this topic wouldn't have been as successful without it

I always need my cookie.

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ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Oct 21 2009, 05:05 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ 5 hours, 34 minutes ago)
I always need my cookie.

NOM

Excuse my ignorance, what is "NOM"?
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 05:07 PM


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He's being cute.

E.G.

I'm in your freezerz eating your foodz.

nomnomnomnom.
Spaz
Posted: Oct 21 2009, 08:05 PM


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Is the eating sound. Like om nom nom. Noms = food, nomming = eating.
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Blazing Bullet
Posted: Mar 22 2010, 07:44 PM


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what does nom noms have to do with ABS? LOL

As everyone else says... just hold your foot down and do whatever you need to do to avoid danger. In terms of braking the abs sytem will lessen or strengthen the braking force of each wheel to limit the amount of wheel lock/sliding. Thus giving you control without having to modulate the brake pedal.
RDvil
Posted: Mar 26 2010, 04:38 AM


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On a verrry slippery surface the front wheel traction is crucial and also quite hard to keep sometimes.
After skidding past a red light this winter on a Mercedes Benz Atego, I begun to think about something else. It has ABS of course but it's crappy, no help there. The Iveco Eurocargo I also drive has an exhaust brake that activates before the regular airbrakes and since it effectually blocks the exhaust, braking the engine, the effect is all on the rear wheels. That is good because for one, you don't need them to steer and two, it's an instant weight transfer to the front. Since the MB doesn't have this neat gadget the only way to slow the bugger down is harsh abuse of the gearbox & clutch by rapid downshifting and of course - the handbrake. That shit works.

Same applies to ordinary cars too, as long as it's rwd and/or has a handbrake that only affects the rear wheels and is easy to apply & release, preferrably smoothly.
Dry surfaces are much easier in terms of weight transfer so threshold braking is the way to go. It's not difficult either, but it helps if you have at least one car that you drive for years. When it comes naturally in one car it's easier to adopt into others - one of the reasons I like my daily driver without ABS.