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hehehe you beat me to it^ SPAM SPAM!! Im sorry I just need to get out of this job! im allready 4 minutes overtime!

i actually do have a license but that doesn't matter, because i would drive never the less...

but, i think it would be common sense that short wheelbase/narrow track cars are NOT stable

In autocross, the car doesn't have to be stable, it just has to be nimble...

This video is pretty played out, but it's the first thing that came to mind on that comment.

Talk about "nimble". Gawd.

it has to be somewhat stable, or else it would just end up swaying all over the place, it would not be able to grip past a certain point and it would just tip over. I have to say the smart is tiny, and that gives it an advantage, but the smart roadster(which is much flatter), would be better for autocross.

just saying,i wouldn't prefer a top heavy car as an autocross car

We'll duh Einstein, of course Top heavy cars are a pile of shit, but what he meant by stability is different than yours. Its actually better for a car to be 'twitchy' than stable because of how fast the transitions have to be.

Ahhhh, yeah... my mistake, wheelbase has nothing to do with the flaws of the smart(in autox) but i would take a chainsaw to that roof section of the smart...

What EXACTLY is your argument? that the roof sucks?

Short wheel base as well

and fookin fast in the corners, dont know what you're on

Why does this have anything to do with the topic?

ANSWER: Nothing.

Thanks for playing. Moving on...

SPAM^ anyway, FF dont drift, simple.

Wow, you've summed up 46 pages of "discussion" so eloquently!

Yes the roof sucks, it makes it top heavy... i would rather have a go-kart smart... it would be so quick...

and about the topic... "drifting is an extended poweroversteer, with the front wheels gripping only achievable with a pure RWD"

This post has been edited by atlantian on Mar 24 2008, 07:37 AM

Actually, the front wheels themselves slide in a drift.

A drift starts out with the rear sliding more than the front. But for the remainder of the drift up until the exit, the front is sliding more than the rear.

^o ryly

i thought that the front wheels have to follow the driving line...

They do.

Try to think about it. In a RWD, if the rear wheels had absolutely no traction at all, then it'd simply slide off the road rather than propel itself around the turn. And if the front wheels were gripping, then countersteer would simply cause the car to stop drifting.

oh, no, front wheel grip has nothing to do with rolling friction

EDIT: and btw, the rear wheels propels the rear to some degree... have you seen a doughnut?

This post has been edited by atlantian on Mar 24 2008, 06:13 PM

heh. Cant believe ppl are still having such a conversation. I havent posted on this forum much solemme see what $.02 of drivel i can add, k?

Umm first and foremost, atlantean, dont take this the wrong way but the things that you say are reminescent of a ricer fanboy. Its not meant as an insult but it seems you've read alot of magazines that have told you one thing or another is the BEST for one situation or another and have become rather enamored (sp?) with the fantasies of 'performance cars'. Just so you know, the only 'best' is what you know how to use properly. Dont get mad, we all started out like this in one respect or another. Its the same reason many people hunt for 240zs, skylines, and supras for their first project cars since common opinion has made them popular. Any car can be good if it has a devout following to make it work.

And yes, most cars with the flash and cladding are indeed rice. Rice is defined as a modification that provide no provable performance improvement. Like electric superchargers, not enough psi's are generated regardless of their cfms. You can add rear spoilers in downforce configuration on a FWD to that list. It wont help much and often hinders performance. Rice is sometimes nice, but its usually only for looks at best. Listen to others and ask questions, atlantean, but dont take everything to heart based on them. The only way to learn and know is to go out and do. Get in your car and drive it. When it breaks, get some tools and fix it. do this for awhile and you'll make more sense when you speak about cars in general. Remember this if nothing else.

As to whether FF can drift, that depends on your ability to use the following techniques: suspension loading, stering flicks, Throttle liftoff, and ebrakes. if you have difficulties with any of these techniques, you cant drift a FF car. This applies to most people since they either dont drive very hard or aren't accustom to front powered drivetrains, thus the 'unexpected understeer' complaints. Few of you probably know what you're talking about when it comes to what FF can do since most of the techniques being mentioned are being contexed as it applies to FR drivetrains. Short wheelbases? Not a problem, but somehow the leap from FR to FF confounds many. Those of you who've suceeded in AWD drifting, no matter how brief, are better suited in having a discussion on the merits of FF since they too have front tires applying torque.

Anyways, there isnt any new theory, just a reunderstanding needed of how to get through a turn. Those who complain that the drift cannot continue since the rear tires aren't keeping traction broken without them being driven are ony half capable of drifting since it can be assumed that without RWD, their techniques fall short of performance. Mainly, they're into D1, which is just a performance rather than a show of performance. For a common car, gun the engine and dump the clutch is easy. The cool parts are there to add reliability. If the drivers skill is fully rounded, he/she can perform well regardless of the cars configuration, assuming its not unnessesarily topheavy like an SUV.

Mind you all this isnt to say that FR is inferior. FR outshines just because of its nature, but if you look at the list of known applicable techniques to FR, most can be applied to FF just fine with drivetrain considerations. Would i choose and FF over an FR? That depends on the car's repairability and weight distribution. Thats just me and im only but so picky.

A little about me...
My daily driver is a 93 Lumina Euro
My project car is an 87 Merkur XR4Ti
My company car is a 05 Chevy Aveo

Out of all those cars, I prefer the Aveo for drifting since its light, has just enough power to gain good speed, and moderate suspension. When i hit speed and take winding curves, she'll tail out with a flick of the brakes and can easily be held through most of the turn. Theres no score, just me going 70mph on a winding 35mph backroad. Thats NC for ya. The beauty of an underpowered car is there not so much torque that you easily break traction on your fron tires unless you wrongly disturb the suspension or exceed even a driftable speed, the latter determinable by the skills of the driver.

The XR is my highway car. Dont mess with one of these unless you like 20yo prototype technology like me. Bulletproof motor and 15psi stock boost. Most arent stock anymore...

The Lumina is just my POS DD car. I love it to death since it never askes for much downtime.

Anyways, back on subject. Just like Takumi, the limiting factor to any cars ability is within the driver. Tuning just makes certain characteristics of the car stand out. Prime example, Hulk Hogans son and his nice supra(supra was it?). Crashed twice, into the same wall. Too much power for the capabilities of the driver. More importantly, he sucks at braking. Powersliding is fine, for donuts. Beyond that, you wont win any races. Nor will perpendicular driving be useful outside a few turns that most roads simply dont have. At such angles, you infact losing speed from your intended direction. When going 'wide', you doing what FF does, carrying inertia through the turn. The difference is that FF cars dont utiliz the wider oversteers as well so the tuner sets up for a more 'race drift' configuration and only go wide to cut into hairpins through manipulation of current inertia.

I guess ive gone long. If you wanna drift any car, concentrate on the suspension and tires. If you wanna do wheelies, burnouts, and choku-dori stuff, get a RWD.

This post has been edited by Rotisserie on Mar 24 2008, 09:57 PM

hey,Rotisserie, kudos for writing a whole essay of a rant. it's cool that's you are supporting your own favorite drive train, and you are right, i am a ricer fan boy. I love auto racing, but is too poor to actually start messing with cars(with noone in my family that understands how to drive decently, and noone in my family messing with cars...)

I would say a car with RWD power is generally perfered for racing. Since on hard accelerations, you get a little more grip on the driving tires, and in racing, every little thing counts right? and as for drifting... sure okey, powersliding is achievable with any car out there, that is true. i don't really feel like arguing about the "real" definition anymore.

and i daily drive my ES. i actually do try to drift(...once in a blue moon ). but it's just stupid to think that "pedal to the metal" will get you to oversteer in a FWD. But my beef with FWD is not drifting(although, FR's can hold a tire driven drift). but it's with launching from a stop, and the wheel lift that i experience... and the overloading of the front tires, and the easily worn transition bearings(the ones that connect the engine to the wheel, whatever you call it)

thats cool
lemme see what i can remember...


it is historically know to the 30+ crowd that FF oversteers when you let off the gas. back in the 80s, this was a serious complaint from the less skilled drivers. over the years, car configurations out of the factory have been trying to minimalise this effect. this is one of the reasons an old Mini is so nimble but a recent FF often feels sluggish in a turn. you dont want Joe Q. BadDriver jackknifing unexpectedly, do you?

like i said, FF isnt for beginners. you cant just smash the gas and expect rainbows to shoot out o your muffler. your ability to drift is dependent on your use of suspension. if the only thing you know is to hit the throttle and hang on, you'll need to do some real reading. read a book instead of a magazine. read about drift theory instead of blind eye arrogance found in forums. learn what the brakes are really for. ever wondered why the master cylinder is front biased? there is good reasons...

overall, i would want an old mini or one of the older EG6 based type R if i was going to get an FF...(well, the RS focus looks pretty cool) but apparently it's illigal to make such cars nowadays...

and for FF drifting, i just think it's too much of a hassle, fr drifting is like just sitting back and marveling at what the car is doing compared to an FF drift...

note: when i want to drift in an ff i do a flick then i try to correct the angle by pushing on the throttle and try to straighten the car more. but the majority of the time, i end up pulling the car OUT of the drift and into another opposite one... then i spin out. i just don't have the skills to drift an FF, aparently

Just a few notes. Figured I'd put it out there.

-Any car can powerslide. When a FWD car powerslides, it's going to hit a wall/guardrail/ditch/etc. Powersliding is the powered wheels sliding... the powered wheels are up front... so you're understeering off the road. Good game.

-The master cylinder is front biased because the length of the tubing to the front wheels is shorter than the tubing to the rear wheels, since the cylinder is in the engine bay. I can't believe someone is actually trying to read further into that. On the other hand, that person believes that FWD cars can be D1GP tyte, so...

-FWD cars are not D1GP tyte. Argue all you want, but there's no "hassle" about it, a FWD simply is incapable of holding a slide like that. There's no power going to the rear wheels, so it is not possible. No arguing. It's physics. End.

-FWD cars are rally tyte. Four-wheel drifting, which is different from the "drifting" that you guys are talking about (D1GP), a FWD is fully capable of. So is AWD. So is RWD. For that, you just need a neutrally-balanced car with proper suspension settings and a skilled driver. It's the fastest way through a corner, but it doesn't look like much.

Atlantian, the problem you're having trying to drift your mom's econobox is that you're forgetting two key facts:

1.) FWD cars cannot drift. Stop being a ricer.
2.) You're not thinking about physics. When you flick the car, your front tires still have grip. When you apply power, they pull the car in the direction they're pointed. If the wheels are pointed away from the direction of rotation (e.g. countersteering), then the weight is going to shift the other way and you'll snap around. Quite violently, if I recall correctly. Physics, mah boiiii.

^just a few retorts...
-sorry, i ment drift, oversteer, tailout, any other synonym
-huh? i didn't catch that
-i didn't say it was



1. i said once in a blue moon, i don't drift
2. okey, cool, thanks for the tip , btw, if i keep off the throttle, the car will spin out naturally(how you would normally picture a spin-out)

This post has been edited by im_back on Mar 25 2008, 05:46 PM

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)
  - Details: Warning has been issued to this post by InitialDRulz on Mar 25 2008, 09:06 PM.
  - Reasons: Came back with another account. Previously known as Atlantian

Why aren't you saying the same thing regarding rear wheels?

Yes. I have seen doughnuts. And I've eaten them as well. They sure taste good.

Oh. You mean donuts? Donuts really shouldn't be compared to drifts. The only similarity the two have is that the rear wheels let off smoke.

In a donut, the front wheels are at their full grip all the time. At low speeds such as that, the front wheels do not lose grip at full lock. The rear is sliding more than the front, but retains enough grip to push the car around.

In a drift, the front tires have less grip than the rear after entry. I could explain this part to you again. But I think INITIAL D can explain it to you better. Just look at Act 2 of First Stage. The part where Itsuki asks Takumi if he knows what a drift is.

This post has been edited by Meteor on Mar 25 2008, 08:03 PM

fair enough.

if you read my previous posts a little more thoroughly, youd realise that ive pointed out the following:

-powersliding in a FWD is stupid since it induces understeer. i was trying to emphasize the concept of carrying your current inertia through the turn. this doesnt involve doing front wheel burnouts and prolly explains why alot of ppl are curbing their FFs.

- yes the tubing is longer in the rear, but such things can be modified at the factory. they COULD make the brakes rear biased, but its not as effective since the weight is coming off the rear tires and onto the front(hint for those learning).

for those who dont understand brake drifting, its as simple as priming your front shocks by briefly limit-braking to drop the suspension while driving and using the rebound to improve fromt grip so you can turn quickly, thus gaining higher polar inertia than you would just turning normally. you can use in combination with inertia drifting and throttle lift off to gain fairly good angle control. these and many other techniques are platform independant since brakes and suspension are generally the same for all makes and models. there are other special braking movement that can utilize the compound hydraulic nature of the typical master cylinder making the e-brake less needed.

-D1GP? dont really care. dont think i argued for anything involving FFs in D1GP. four wheel drifting isnt any different than a 2 wheel drift except that it takes more balls to do it and not die in the process. and no, neutral balancing isnt ideal. its actually supposed to be slightly rear biased by a few percentages due to varying grip slippage from the steering tires. thus, most MR cars...

-atlantean, if you wanna learn about FF drifting, you might wanna steer away from drivers who are FR centric in their skillset. their advice isnt for you unless you're driving something with rear propulsion. go talk to the AWD ppl since their advice is more applicable.

an explanation for how to drift, lemme sum this up for ya:
"if you wanna drift, learn to create and control polar inertia reliably."
as to the whys and hows, thats where experience comes into play. so ask yourself a question. do you wanna be fastest or most perpendicular. if its the latter, dont drive FF.