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lol, i saw a 7 seater run on black ice and did a 180, i was like 'WOA! OMGWTFBBQ, L33T DRIV3R!!' and it was some women in her 40's

i can understand pressing down the clutch.
i don't understand the ebrake part

dont't hink i've ever encountered black ice enough to make me spin. coming to a stop i did and i simply laid on the horn, declutched and errr, prayed

i can understand pressing down the clutch.
i don't understand the ebrake part

dont't hink i've ever encountered black ice enough to make me spin. coming to a stop i did and i simply laid on the horn, declutched and errr, prayed

yeah i prayed too... lol

I would MUCH rather have an FR car in winter than an FF.

Good luck countersteering and maintaining control when your front heavy, front wheel drive civic starts spinning or sliding.

Steering with the same wheels that you're throwing power to is never a good idea. Especially on ice.

This post has been edited by NeveR on Oct 20 2004, 04:29 PM

Front heavy front wheel drive in low traction conditions when the weight hasnt shifted back, meaning youve got even more weight on the powered wheels and turning wheels... how aweful

In low traction

FF> Fr
___

Frs are MUCH more likely to spin out in low traction conditions. Your pushing a nose heavy vehicle around, how much control do you think your going to have where that nose goes with low traction? You dont have as much weight on the powered wheels compared to ff, you dont have as much weight on the turning wheels when compared to ff

An ff can pull itself around.. making it much more stable and easier to guide through the snow. front heavy style weight distribution you look down at now actually gives them an edge.

Harder to make a mistake, and if were going to compare racing abilities and not just daily driving in snow, same is also true- for all the reasons mentioned before so im not going to get into it.


This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 20 2004, 05:57 PM

Thank you...

Now I don't even have to post anything...

No, all you had to do was quote sideways and pump post count +1...

When hitting black Ice before a corner there are a few things you can do:

In a FF: Get of the brakes, depress the clutch, and steer just a little. When the car starts turning, if it goes into a spin, press the accelerator to pull the car back in line, but gently. Too much trottle, and the front wheels will spin to much, leaving them unable to controll the direction of the car.

In a FR: Get of the brakes, DONT depress the clutsh, and steerm just a little. Why you dont depress the clutch is because the rear wheels will brake a little, making the car lean lust a little forward, giving the front tires more grip, enough to make the car start turning. When the car starts turning, depress the clutch so the drift angle doesn't become too big, and let the tires scrub of speed (because they're slightly sideways, and steer the car through the corner. When exiting, If the drift angle isn't big enough, depress the throttle WERY gently to "push" the car through the corner. If the drif angle is to big, countersteer a lot, and quickly depress the brakes . This might (if you're lucky) lock up your inner front wheel (due to leaning because of camber), giving the car less grip in front, and the rear wheels, having more grip than the front, will brake, letting the front slide into position.

In a 4wd: 4wd cars are great. they almost never loose traction. If they do, you pray to wichever god you believe in... the way to tun a 4wd is to try and get it sideways, pointing in towards the turn and then stepping on the throttle. Only problem is, if you're allready going too fast for the turn. what do you do then?

Of all the cars the 4wd is the mostastable car on ice, but the biggest hassle to rescue. FF are real easy to drive under all conditions too, but you'll have to be patient when it looses grip in front, because having most of the weight in front, it's like throwing a hammer. It doesn't really want to go any other way. FR are a hassle in the winter, allways going sideways. But having the the front and rear wheels controlling different things leaves the driver with more options when things start to happen. People allways talk shit about my mustangs, but in 7 years, I've never been stuck once! My car has the 2.3liter 4syl, and therefore a reasonable weight ballance. Also I use Nokian Hakkepellita. Allways have. And out of all my cars, this is the most predictable car on snow and ice! My Mitsubishi Gallant GTI, Pontiac Phoenix, and a couple of other FF cars had a tendency to not turn, no matter what I did when I hit some really slick spots. All of my FF cars are gone now, because of that exept for a 1974 Datsun Cherry 100A Estate... but that one is a really rare resto object.

Never get on the brakes in an FR while on Black Ice.
My boss hit black ice once in his A31 Cefiro, hit the brakes and it spun a few times ended up hitting some bump and rolled it.
He was told after that, what he did to make it worse was he hit the brakes. He should have just left everything, and just tryed to steer the car out of it.

Anyway after that, they drove the car home, which was like 300km away, with the roof pushed in, the windows smashed, one of the doors just hanging on.

^

I agree. You don't want to get on the brakes in any car when you are already in danger of spinning. You don't want the weight shifted forward much either either. AWD/4WD cars do not have better cornering or braking traction, so if you drive like a moron in the rain, you are still screwed. Please don't give bad advice, be careful with what you post.

This post has been edited by Jabberwocky on Nov 5 2004, 04:44 PM

Once your going slow enough you can gently slow the car down with the brakes, but the key word is GENTLY. stopping them in any ways hape or form is just asking for a spin out, your tires need to roll in order for you to have any control of where your going

If you read the post carefully I say get off the brakes to get control, and turn the car. Get ON the brakes if you start spinning. That's AFTER you get the car to turn WITHOUT braking. If you're allready in a to bad angle to correct the drift, get on the brakes, as locking the front wheels will send them to the front. That's because the wheels that are locked will allways want to go first. I'ts the same as pulling the handbrake on a straightway, exet, when doing that, the car will turn 180 degrees around, and travel in a straight line with the rear wheels first. If you manage to lock ONLY the front wheels, the car will slowly get out of a drift/slide.

It's true that 4WD don't have better traction. I think you misunderstood my point. Let me explan:

In a 4wd: 4wd cars are great. they almost never loose traction. (using all 4 wheels to drive the car forward, they use more of the available tracktion.)

If they do, you pray to wichever god you believe in... (being able ot use more of the tractoin awailable to all 4 wheels, a 4WD car will be closer to it's limits before the driver get's anyu signal warning him about it. Therefore 4WD's often loose grip suddently, and since you're probably allready going faster than you would in a FF or FR, because 4WD feels safer, you will be in trouble.)

the way to turn a 4wd is to try and get it sideways, pointing in towards the turn and then stepping on the throttle. Only problem is, if you're allready going too fast for the turn. what do you do then? (I mentioned this because: If your're going too fast, correcting the direction of a 4wd with the throttle can't be done.)

I never said 4WD had better braking traction... Where did you get that from? Actually, I newer said anything at all about braking with 4wd, because that's hopeless... geting of the trottle /braking in a 4wd makes it react in a totally different way than a FR / FF. The 4WD becomes uncontrollable, and even if it's going through a turn, the moment you release the throttle, all four wheels slows down, making the car unstable, and eading for the ditch.

Now that I've explained what I was thinking, Maybe youll see that I was being Ironic when I said 4WD is great:
(In a 4wd: 4wd cars are great. they almost never loose traction. If they do, you pray to wichever god you believe in... )

What I said about catching the FR's drift at a too big angle (that means too big for your countersteer) : It's difficult, but might work.

About FF: They are wery front heavy, making them a double edged sword. It's true that they can (like Sideways says) pull themselves back into direction. He forgets to mention however, that FF's are wery understeered as well. By nature they want to go straight ahead. Another thing about FF: Try from a standstill or slow speed on ice, or snow, to turn the steeringwheel all the way to one side, and stepping on the throttle. Whet happends is; the car accelerates in a straight line! It doesn't turn. An FF driver has to be careful not to step to hard on the throttle, or else the car will not react at all.


One more thing: I AM carefull about what I write, because having worked as a truckdriver, I've seen way to many accidents. I don't Like to give out bad advice, and I dont want to see anyone drive like a maniac because they've read my post. People should drive carefully on public roads, and practice winter driwing techniques at track meets, or big empty parkinglots.

To round of this post, I have a question:

Seeing that Sideways live in Las Vegas, Nevada (a desert) And Te Kaha lives in New Zealand, Do you see a lot of snow?

The common awd car does not have any more grip in the snow. There is no magic that makes it stick better. It has 4 tires like any other car. It only uses more of the available grip during acceleration and ONLY ACCELERATION. It does not have any advantage braking or corners. If anything, a rwd vehicle is the hardest to drive in the snow since you commonly get power oversteer as oppose to power on understeer from an awd car.

No, you'll spin out.

Driving in the rain is the same as driving in the dry, except your limits change. The techniques used in the dry are for the most part still valid in the wet.