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> 2017 Toyota 86 (The "FR-S" in Disguise), Sorry but its not a GT86
BOZZ
Posted: Mar 19 2016, 01:23 PM


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I don't think the facelift of the BRZ/86 looks that bad, but I do wonder what the future holds with the Toyotaburu. Personally I don't get the feeling that Toyota or Subaru seem to care too much about it and I don't imagine there being a second generation of the series.

If they do make a second generation I'd hope they differentiate the two further cause to me it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of differences between buying the Subaru BRZ or Toyota 86/Scion FR-S.
kyonpalm
Posted: Mar 19 2016, 01:30 PM


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QUOTE (BOZZ @ 7 minutes, 19 seconds ago)
Personally I don't get the feeling that Toyota or Subaru seem to care too much about it and I don't imagine there being a second generation of the series.

Aren't they selling really well, though? I think they'd care about that.
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Sensation!
Posted: Mar 19 2016, 01:36 PM


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QUOTE (kyonpalm @ 5 minutes, 30 seconds ago)
Aren't they selling really well, though? I think they'd care about that.

Actually, their sales have been falling since launch. They're not the worst selling cars, but i don't think they met expectations.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-scion-fr-...-niche-product/

I doubt Subaru will do a new BRZ, but toyotas partnership with BMW might allow for new 86.

kyonpalm
Posted: Mar 19 2016, 03:13 PM


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QUOTE (Sensation! @ 1 hour, 37 minutes ago)
Actually, their sales have been falling since launch. They're not the worst selling cars, but i don't think they met expectations.

That's intersting, because I see them all over the place where I live. If they haven't met expectations, maybe they expected too much.
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BOZZ
Posted: Mar 19 2016, 04:35 PM


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QUOTE (kyonpalm @ 3 hours, 5 minutes ago)
Aren't they selling really well, though? I think they'd care about that.

Sales figures straight from Toyota (U.S. sales figures):

2012 - 11417
2013 - 18327
2014 - 14062
2015 - 10507

Toyota Press Release

Sales figures for Subaru (U.S. sales figures):

2012 - 4144
2013 - 8087
2014 - 7504
2015 - 5296

Nevermind, found sales figures for the BRZ on Subaru's website.

FR-S and BRZ sales article on Car and Driver

I'm not sure whether the figures for the FR-S are bad or not, it depends on what the expectations were for the FR-S in the first place. The total sales of the BRZ are about half those of the FR-S, makes me wonder if the car would've been better off sold strictly as a Scion/Toyota.

This post has been edited by BOZZ on Mar 19 2016, 04:41 PM
RalliKai
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 05:06 AM


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I'd rather see both companies go their separate ways, and Toyota scrap the current 86 and just start over. At the very least, replace the engine and tranny.
Tessou
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 06:25 AM


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This is not something any manufacturer would do to a model that they just remodeled.
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xiao
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 07:03 AM


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QUOTE (BOZZ)
Personally I don't get the feeling that Toyota or Subaru seem to care too much about it and I don't imagine there being a second generation of the series.

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
Aren't they selling really well, though? I think they'd care about that.

Fred's article header really hits it again on the head. Keyword niche.

The face-lift is completely the spirit of Scion trying to get one more kick before it dies into obscurity. Scion enthusiasts/engineers are for the most part Murican Bros, and Bro-culture always entails god-awful Fast & Furious aesthetics with a Jagermeister-keg full of Nos~> So I doubt the Japanese 86 culture, raised on Best Motoring and Seven&i DoriDori Magazines would give 2-cents about an off-shoot xenomorph body. Thus I think the Japanese 86 won't be undergoing the face-lift.

Now on to the important part, power. Ultimately the increase in power comes down to the execs at Toyobaru Japan... so why do I personally think the old-flops in ties & suits over in J-Land won't ever increase the horsepower on the vehicle... simple: this is what they think about the car they created...

'Ohoho~ this car is meant to be the Hachi-Roku #2 LOL!! And just like the Hachi-Roku #1, we don't need to give a ferk about Parts or Power; the JDM Aftermarket is gonna take care of all that for us LOL! We gave the fans what they wanted... now lets let the fans take care of it themselves... we never gave the Hachi-1 any power increase back in the 80's... why should we give the Hachi-2 a boost now!? LOL!'

Toyobaru Japan executives are complacent lazy old farts, that like the steady income they receive annually off of Hybrids, Compacts, Mini-vans, Sedans, Wagons, SUV's, Business Towncars, Kei Sardine Cans, and even more Priuses...

Don't believe me? Allow me to demonstrate what the Japanese Toyota CEO is thinking about the 86 by simply comparing the Toyota Sports Line-up, with the rest of the crap they sell:

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Wait for it...... wait for it......

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A MIRAI!?!? That's what the Sports Line-up means to Toyota... a frickin' MIRAI?? blink.gif

QUOTE (Toyota Japan Boardroom Meeting)
Hahaha~ we don't need the 86... the 86 needs US LOL!!

facepalm.gif
Spaz
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 07:58 AM


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QUOTE (BOZZ @ Yesterday, 7:35 PM)
Sales figures straight from Toyota (U.S. sales figures):

2012 - 11417
2013 - 18327
2014 - 14062
2015 - 10507

Toyota Press Release

Sales figures for Subaru (U.S. sales figures):

2012 - 4144
2013 - 8087
2014 - 7504
2015 - 5296

Nevermind, found sales figures for the BRZ on Subaru's website.

FR-S and BRZ sales article on Car and Driver

I'm not sure whether the figures for the FR-S are bad or not, it depends on what the expectations were for the FR-S in the first place. The total sales of the BRZ are about half those of the FR-S, makes me wonder if the car would've been better off sold strictly as a Scion/Toyota.

That's interesting. I know almost no FR-S owners. Everyone I race with went for the BRZ. It didn't matter that it was softer because it was going to be modified anyway, but the better options did matter, and I assume the higher will to please of SOA probably plays in too.

QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ Yesterday, 3:11 PM)
And chassis, and drivetrain unless you mean your VW. tongue.gif

Quite true. However, it's funny with the VW. Everyone expects the performance of the Evo, but nobody does with the VW, even other VW owners. I have had people legit scared in the passenger seat of that car. laugh2.gif
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 09:23 AM


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Hahaha, fair enough! Though I will say that stock the Capri is nowhere near that number. It's only because the engine is over-engineered and there's decades of aftermarket support for it that it can get there with minimal effort (new ECU, slightly oversized turbo compressor). One of those 'man they sure tuned this thing conservatively' situations. awesome.gif

But then you have it being FWD and a convertible, so while it's fun for educating me on turbocharging I wouldn't exactly put it into the same 'fun' category as my older cars...

As to the topic, I know lots of people around the area who have FR-Ss. It's actually very rare for me to see a BRZ around here.
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Seri
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 09:54 AM


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Florida seems to favor the FR-S.

I do see a BRZ parked in my neighborhood, though.

This post has been edited by Seri on Mar 20 2016, 09:55 AM
Sensation!
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 11:04 AM


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Can also attest to seeing more FR-S.

It's likely the different in locale, scions marketing was targeted towards metropolitan areas after all.
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 12:56 PM


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Yup. I see more FR-Ss than BRZs too, but it's pretty much expected just based on the production numbers.

I'm not sure how I feel about the facelift. It's more consistent with Toyota's design philosophy, but personally it's not a good thing, since I hate the front ends of the Camry and Avalon, and this shares the huge, huge front air dam, which is for the most part aesthetic and not even an air inlet. Toyota's doing too much of that -- just look at the C-pillar of the current Camry, where the black plastic is an attempt to make it look like the window is bigger than it is while making the pillar itself look less thick.

The wheels are a slight improvement (I never liked the black spokes in between the silver ones) but look like they would be better as 18s, the headlights are interesting (in a good way, as I never liked the LED strip on the HID-equipped models) and the taillights are basically duplicates of what's been available on the aftermarket.

It's kind of a similar facelift to what Mazda did to the RX-8 how they applied the current design philosophy to it and added some extra curves, except it didn't come off as nicely as the RX-8.

Added power is welcome, but I agree that the increase of 5 isn't anything to brag about, though we'll have to see how the curves are and if it's possibly an underrated increase. If it also comes with a fuel economy bump too somehow, then that's not too bad.
The Sixth Element
  Posted: Mar 20 2016, 08:47 PM


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"Old men ... running the world" - Bob Page (Deus Ex)

Almost every company in Japan. From the depths of Konami to the JDM scheme lords of Toyotaburu, they all are controlled by old CEOs and private shareholders that care about the massive flow of money while making sure their customers pay more for a regular car and their employees getting minimum wages. The best about the Toyotaburu agreement is the formula of the FR-S/BRZ/GT-86.

100 FR-S/GT86 sales = 1 BRZ sale

I feel bad for Subaru getting the smaller half of the sales of the 86 twins.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 09:07 PM


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I don't feel bad one bit. They had a chance to make it the comeback of the AWD turbo coupe and didn't take it. Fuck 'em.
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xiao
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 10:24 PM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 1 hour, 15 minutes ago)
I don't feel bad one bit. They had a chance to make it the comeback of the AWD turbo coupe and didn't take it. Fuck 'em.

THIS times 1000%!! Fsck Subaru right in the ass for being just as lazy as Toyota's executives.

Why is Subaru making a hideous 300hp refrigerator box of polygons like this:

user posted image

And not giving the sexy looking BRZ an All Wheel Drivetrain with a sweet-spot 300whp!?!? blink.gif

What the hell is a BRZ anyway!? Call it an Impreza, throw out that disgusting looking sedan, and make the 22BRZ like the original for fsck's sake Subaru!!

...don't you remember the 2.5 RS?? Bunta?? 22B?? 555?? GOGOGO?? Rally McRally Whatchumacallit!?!? (That's what the BRZ should be)

This post has been edited by xiao on Mar 20 2016, 10:32 PM
The Sixth Element
  Posted: Mar 20 2016, 11:28 PM


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QUOTE (xiao @ 1 hour, 3 minutes ago)
THIS times 1000%!! Fsck Subaru right in the ass for being just as lazy as Toyota's executives.

Why is Subaru making a hideous 300hp refrigerator box of polygons like this:

http://i.imgur.com/xAtqXi7.jpg

And not giving the sexy looking BRZ an All Wheel Drivetrain with a sweet-spot 300whp!?!? blink.gif

What the hell is a BRZ anyway!? Call it an Impreza, throw out that disgusting looking sedan, and make the 22BRZ like the original for fsck's sake Subaru!!

...don't you remember the 2.5 RS?? Bunta?? 22B?? 555?? GOGOGO?? Rally McRally Whatchumacallit!?!? (That's what the BRZ should be)

Subaru is like Honda, too logical and practical. Why does Honda still make the Si or Type R? The 2 companies know that their consumers love those cars cause of it being a "sports" car. A BRZ with AWD and the EJ motor would be good or AWD and a turbocharged FA motor.

Time to put my faith in American cars now whistling.gif

P.S - I think Subaru forgot how to make a good sports car like how Lexus forgot how to make a car as good as the LFA.
xiao
Posted: Mar 20 2016, 11:41 PM


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QUOTE (The Sixth Element @ 7 minutes, 53 seconds ago)
Time to put my faith in American cars now  whistling.gif

Amen borther! ...although we don't need to go as far as giving up our weeaboo ways for a little four-doory boredy Fordy (hate comments intensify) awesome.gif

Let's just make Crawford the Roush & Ruf GmbH of Subaru from now onwards~ STi-whatnowlol!? user posted image

Here's the 400BRZ from another angle:

YOUTUBE ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKXzDhGhoEg )

...that thing really needs a 4WD... look at it slipping on Mario Kart banana peels! tongue.gif

This post has been edited by xiao on Mar 20 2016, 11:46 PM
kyonpalm
Posted: Mar 21 2016, 06:56 AM


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QUOTE (The Sixth Element @ 7 hours, 28 minutes ago)
P.S - I think Subaru forgot how to make a good sports car like how Lexus forgot how to make a car as good as the LFA.

Well it'd be hard for them to make another car as good as that. I actually really like the Lexus lineup at the moment, especially the RC.
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Sensation!
Posted: Mar 21 2016, 07:15 AM


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Lexus and Toyota R&D are really one and the same, just the marketing is different; which in turn affects design and engineering.
A 400,000 dollar car doesn't really fit with Toyota's ethos but it does with Lexus.

Plus, Toyota has never forgot how to make great cars, they're simply aiming for a more profitable audience and it's been paying off for them since the 90's.

This post has been edited by Sensation! on Mar 21 2016, 07:31 AM
Tessou
Posted: Mar 21 2016, 09:10 AM


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QUOTE (The Sixth Element @ 9 hours, 41 minutes ago)
P.S - I think Subaru forgot how to make a good sports car like how Lexus forgot how to make a car as good as the LFA.

Lexus didn't forget. They just won't make another because of costs. They don't have the money to lose on another hypersport like the LFA. Did you forget that they made no profit on that car?
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The Sixth Element
  Posted: Mar 21 2016, 07:39 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ Today, 9:10 AM)
Lexus didn't forget. They just won't make another because of costs. They don't have the money to lose on another hypersport like the LFA. Did you forget that they made no profit on that car?

Yeah, they were losing profit for making that car but I love the tenacity and determination that Lexus had with the LFA. The RCF was just a way to make money while not being like the LFA like how the Huracan was made for profit.

(Gasp~~ LAMBORGHINI TRYING TO MAKE PROFIT??!!!! blink.gif )
Spaz
Posted: Mar 22 2016, 06:54 AM


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I think the sales differences are driven more by brand popularity in the locale, rather than marketing. Up here in the frozen tundra, Subaru does exceptionally well across the board.
Sensation!
Posted: Mar 22 2016, 08:30 AM


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QUOTE (Spaz @ 1 hour, 36 minutes ago)
I think the sales differences are driven more by brand popularity in the locale

Yep, that's a result of marketing.
It's always more than just what ads you decide to air to an area, marketing affects the direction of the brand and whom products should be made for, hence market research and targeting.

Subarus AWD image makes them popular in areas with a lot of snow and rain, it's why the BRZ sticks out like a sore thumb in their lineup.

Scion being unpopular in the midwest isn't a coincidence, that brand and all its products are designed for urban centers. Toyota could've easily re-badged a hilux as a Scion, but it doesn't fit the brand ethos of being cool and hip.

Branding and Marketing are really one and the same.

This post has been edited by Sensation! on Mar 22 2016, 08:40 AM
The Sixth Element
  Posted: Mar 23 2016, 07:28 PM


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This is old news since Toyota has been hinting on a sedan, and convertible version of the 86 but this is the new design of the Toyota 86.

http://www.carscoops.com/2016/03/facelifte...ible-is_19.html

Toyota will never make their mind up aren't they? Why keep drawing concepts and hint or feign ignorance on the idea when you know your consumers aren't gonna buy it?

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