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Views: 2,647  ·  Replies: 19 
> I don't know how to take this turn.
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Feb 27 2009, 08:28 AM


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First and foremost: I don't drive on this road any more. With the exception of this picture I'm about to show you the canyon is most straights with gentle curves and slopes. But the main thing is there's too much traffic and homes along the road. I'm posting this because in my mind I do not know how to attack this portion of the road and I would like the knowledge of how to handle this type of course. Having said that, let's move forward:

user posted image

As you drive from A to E you are heading downhill. I have labeled where the peak and base of this "mountain road" are located. As you can see, it's not very apart and despite this not having a high altitude, the section is VERY steep. Having said that, the outside edges of the roads are on cliffs, and there's no giant rocks (like at GMR or much shrubery to see on coming traffic. To make matters worse, the apex of the corners after the double hair pin have trees which makes them blind corners. On top of that, this road can be pretty busy even at 12 AM and traffic is random so I never lane cross here.

I assume on the double hair pin (turns A & B) that drifting would be the fastest way. However, in my case, grip driving in my own lane is the only option for me, 27 mph seems to be my limit.

The high speed left hander © is easy enough but in the apex of the turn you don't have clear vision so you don't see Turn E coming up.. So even though one is tempted to take Turn C fast, I've found from experience that Turn C has to be taken slower otherwise I lose traction at Turn E (Which is scary to look at since you're doing downhill and that's literally on the edge of the cliff).

So on Turn E, I know I want to get as far left in my own lane as possible, to the apex, then exit to the left portion of my lane. The straight away (D) in between this turn and Turn C is really short and really steep. I'm not sure whether I should take Turn C slow enough to where I don't need to brake before Turn E so I don't have to worry about traction but greatly reduce my speed. Or if I should take the Turn C faster and brake in D before Turn E. I have no idea where the braking point would be, and when I have braked in D, I've had to brake hard. The few times I tried taking Turn C fast, I had to turn the wheel as I was braking in D and I understeered during Turn E. Luckily it easier to correct understeer with FWD, but obviously I must have been doing something wrong.

I'm not worried so much about the turn between E and the Base since my exit speed is never high enough to where it presents a problem and the straight is longer.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice.
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 08:53 AM


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I dont think it's wise to post and ask about racing on a public road on a public message baord.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 09:00 AM


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Okay, I suck at drawing with the mouse, but assuming there's no traffic, this is the line I'd take (as best as I can depict it). Green is full throttle, red is basically full braking. Keep in mind that "full" is relative to how much your steering wheel is turned, because you can't use all your grip for both cornering and de/accelerating.

user posted image

Now, when I apex corners on roads, if it's a banked corner with a gravel shoulder, I will cut my inside line to the point where the inside tires are on the gravel shoulder. I wouldn't recommend it in a 2WD car, (especially a 1-wheel-wonder) but you could try it.

Now specifically, no, I didn't mis-draw the line around C. I would dive in full throttle and late apex it so that I'm set up to switch to full braking immediately at the exit.

The best thing you can do to make yourself fast is to not worry about the trees and the cliffs. Traffic is, and always will be, a factor. Thinking about totaling your car will automatically slow you down, end of story. Ignore everything and concentrate on the road surface and shoulders. Anything outside of that area is to be ignored. Autox helped me a lot with this, because you've got an entire open parking lot with people standing around, and only cones to guide you, and you have to pick out whats important and what's not almost subconsciously, and chose what information to process and what to discard.

EDIT: Demon, the latest meet thread has vids of it, the touge thread has detailed accounts of it. I don't see you having issue with those?

This post has been edited by cmspaz on Feb 27 2009, 09:02 AM
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backalleyracer
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 12:50 PM


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personally

i would suggest going to a local autocross event in your area

they are cheap ( like $50 a day) and you get to use your car and not worry about getting caught and stuff

it will teach you a lot about car control and you will start to get a feel for you car

check out the SCCA for more information about races in your area, they are everywhere
NismoTime
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 01:28 PM


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QUOTE (WRX DEMON Type R @ 4 hours, 35 minutes ago)
I dont think it's wise to post and ask about racing on a public road on a public message baord.

it isnt about racing! pinch2.gif he just wants to know the "fastest" way down, you never know, he might need to deliver some tofu in a hurry down that road someday happy.gif
sideways
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 02:33 PM


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Having met this guy in person, Ill trust him enough to believe him that this is about curiosity and learning rather than actually racing on that road.

The line I would take and what cmspaz have drawn are much different, for what its worth- I wont bother drawing it up since i could never be accurate enough with the mouse to show a "proper" line.

For starters, get the notion of drifting out of your mind being the fastest way. Unless the turn is tighter than the turning radius of your car, with VERY few exceptions, it will always be faster to maintain grip. Maintain grip and you maintain traction. Maintain traction and you go faster.

So now what would i do?

Corner A, I would take as late an apex as possible. Mid Apexs are faster, if theres nothing to worry about after it. Take a mid apex and you will lose time trying to get back onto the proper line for a following corner, and you run the risk of not being able to brake in a straight line, losing even more time. Take a late apex, and you can approach that corner straight on. You can take the right line through it, and you can brake as straight as an arrow. Its not about taking every corner as fast as possible, its about taking the whole thing as fast as possible. Sometimes you need to go slower here, so youll be faster there, and lose time overall.

Corner B depends on how much of a curve there is to the section for C, and how much you need to slow down through section C, and where, to properly go through corners D and E. The distance is hard to see- So this is my opinion on what I THINK It will be, I will explain what to do to compensate as well.

Through Corner B i would take a Mid apex. This will give you the fastest time through the corner and the fastest exit speed. It doesnt look like theres much to worry about after the corner so getting as much speed as we can is whats important.

Through section C I would do one of two things (Which will modify what i said about corner B slightly). If possible, I would hug the inside as much as possible IF I can brake straight enough and properly enough to get through D and E. If it is too tight we need to change tactics a little.

The problem with section C, D, and E, is C is a curved bank, and theres no real straight to brake properly to get through D and E. If the previous wont work, we need to modify our line to compensate. Imagine as straight a line as possible if you were approaching the outside to take a line through E. This line will extend back through D and part of the way into C. This line will give us the longest straight possible to brake on. Obviously you probably wont need to use all of this straight line- So modify your line to the point that you start it where you need to be braking. This will give you the optimum line needed to brake to get through E.

Now if we need to do this we need to modify our line through section B and C. Youll need to take a wider line through C instead of hugging it to get on that braking line. A mid apex will have you needing to quickly come from the inside, to the outside, and then through C, youll lose time in the transition versus just going straight to it. If you cant get this line properly with a Mid apex through B, well want to start taking a later apex through corner B until we can hit it. properly.

If corner E is your last corner, take as mid an apex as safely possible without needing to worry about clearing that last corner. If you want to make it around that last corner with speed, Id cotton ball E a bit (purposely take a slower line) with a later apex so you can approch that last curve a bit straighter.

Just my unprofessional opinions, and I hope i made things clear enough to understand.
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Feb 27 2009, 06:24 PM


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WRX DEMON Type R:

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough for you?

First and foremost: I don't drive on this road any more. With the exception of this picture I'm about to show you the canyon is most straights with gentle curves and slopes. But the main thing is there's too much traffic and homes along the road. I'm posting this because in my mind I do not know how to attack this portion of the road and I would like the knowledge of how to handle this type of course ... ...is VERY steep. Having said that, the outside edges of the roads are on cliffs, and there's no giant rocks (like at GMR or much shrubery to see on coming traffic. To make matters worse, the apex of the corners after the double hair pin have trees which makes them blind corners. On top of that, this road can be pretty busy even at 12 AM and traffic is random so I never lane cross here.

I knew some one was going to act "mature" for their own shoes and try to belittle me which is why I took the extra effort to make it clear I wasn't racing. Clearly, that effort was wasted. Just because I want the knowledge of the fastest line doesn't mean I'm automatically racing. When I drive to work or school, even though I go at the speed limit, I always try to take the best line I can while in my own lane. There is nothing illegal about that. I made it very clear that this road is too dangerous to race on and I don't even drive it any more. Not once, did I mention racing. It was YOU who brought it up. So please, keep your baseless assumptions to yourself. Thank you.

cmspaz: Aren't you supposed to finish braking before hitting the apex? While I agree that your line is the orthodox fast line and what you said about putting those worries aside to be fast, I have no intention of being fast on this road. Although I have to admit that the transition from the outside of the exit to the outside of the entrance looks a bit too extreme, so I think Sideways has a point in saying that would cost time.

backalleyracer: That is the eventual plan.

NismoTime: Thank you. happy.gif

sideways: Yeah, that cleared things up, I was able to draw a line from the description you gave me. You and Cmspaz cleared up my questions, thanks guys. Thanks for the vote of confidence (that goes to Nismotime too), I appreciate that.
sideways
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 06:56 PM


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QUOTE
Aren't you supposed to finish braking before hitting the apex?


This is a very broad term, but generally- No. Lets just say that 95% of your braking should be done before the apex and in a straight line. Look into whats called trail braking. The idea is (and i will hammer this notion into anyone asking how to "be fast") to be as smooth as possible. You want to smoothly release the brakes, not just drop off of them. Keep it smooth and you keep more traction. The other half is keeping slightly on the brakes keeps some weight up front giving you more traction on the front wheels.

Theres a few situations where this is no good though, this can make a few cars unstable depending on a few factors. Suspension geomtry and weight distribution being one of them (Ie Mid/rear engine cars- the notion of trail braking much is a general no-no). This can also unsettle you a good bit depending on the camber of the corner as well.


For whats it worth, i was doing this often on gmr with you.

This post has been edited by sideways on Feb 27 2009, 07:00 PM
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 06:57 PM


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btw, my bad. I didnt know Sideways had your back on this.
peemyTNBow
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 07:51 PM


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It's not that he had his back, it's just a general question and had no "racing" intentions.



Möbius
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 08:20 PM


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QUOTE (WRX DEMON Type R @ 1 hour, 22 minutes ago)
btw, my bad. I didnt know Sideways had your back on this.

It's not about people having people's back... >_<
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WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 08:21 PM


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QUOTE (BmwNeoType @ 30 minutes, 1 seconds ago)
It's not that he had his back, it's just a general question and had no "racing" intentions.

My bad once again. Didnt know he had no racing intentions.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 09:08 PM


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QUOTE (sideways @ 2 hours, 11 minutes ago)
The idea is (and i will hammer this notion into anyone asking how to "be fast") to be as smooth as possible. You want to smoothly release the brakes, not just drop off of them. Keep it smooth and you keep more traction. The other half is keeping slightly on the brakes keeps some weight up front giving you more traction on the front wheels.

Yep, and it's easier to learn to be smooth before you learn to be fast. If you try to go the other way, you just fall back into the old habits.
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ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Feb 27 2009, 11:20 PM


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QUOTE
This is a very broad term, but generally- No. Lets just say that 95% of your braking should be done before the apex and in a straight line. Look into whats called trail braking. The idea is (and i will hammer this notion into anyone asking how to "be fast") to be as smooth as possible. You want to smoothly release the brakes, not just drop off of them. Keep it smooth and you keep more traction. The other half is keeping slightly on the brakes keeps some weight up front giving you more traction on the front wheels.

Hmm, ever since you told me I needed to work on being smoother I've been concentrating on that. I noticed that I started letting of the brake smoother as well.

QUOTE
For whats it worth, i was doing this often on gmr with you.

I didn't even notice! I mean, the ride was very smooth and gentle but I didn't notice a significant slowdown at the apex of the turn after you would have done most of your braking.

QUOTE
Yep, and it's easier to learn to be smooth before you learn to be fast. If you try to go the other way, you just fall back into the old habits.

I think I've seen you post this before. And I've tried following it and I'll get being smooth down, but then I try to make it faster and I end up losing the smoothness to begin with so I have to start over. I'm just going to take my time with this.
shinn
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 11:34 PM


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Well......

Braking early > braking as late as possible. biggrin.gif

Heel-toe downshift!!!

This is coming from a guy who only had his license for 3 1/2 months. But the tips above are common sense anyways. biggrin.gif
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Feb 28 2009, 09:13 AM


VVTL-i just kicked in yo!
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QUOTE (shinn @ 9 hours, 39 minutes ago)
Well......

Braking early > braking as late as possible. biggrin.gif

Heel-toe downshift!!!

This is coming from a guy who only had his license for 3 1/2 months. But the tips above are common sense anyways. biggrin.gif

Why does Initial D make out late braking to be some super awesome technique in Episode 7 of 4th Stage when Iketani races the S15?
Meteor
Posted: Feb 28 2009, 10:10 AM


Were you expecting something else?
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But it's true! Braking as late as possible while yelling "SUPER ULTRA LATE BRAKING TECHNIQUE!" like some random comic-relief character actually shaves 10 whole seconds off your time! laugh.gif

Last time I checked, the SUPER ULTRA LATE BRAKING was only made out to be some super awesome technique by the idiot driving the S15, and not the show itself.
ToyotaFan84
  Posted: Feb 28 2009, 11:26 AM


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QUOTE (Meteor @ 1 hour, 16 minutes ago)
But it's true! Braking as late as possible while yelling "SUPER ULTRA LATE BRAKING TECHNIQUE!" like some random comic-relief character actually shaves 10 whole seconds off your time! laugh.gif

Last time I checked, the SUPER ULTRA LATE BRAKING was only made out to be some super awesome technique by the idiot driving the S15, and not the show itself.

Oh. Heh, I assumed since Keiichi Tsuchiya was an editorial supervisor that the techniques were actually good ones.
Tessou
Posted: Feb 28 2009, 02:31 PM


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Come on, guys. You're thinking about this problem the wrong way.

user posted image

Da Choppa. Get to it!
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Malkurvs
Posted: Feb 28 2009, 08:54 PM


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That made me laugh far to hard.