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> The New Theory on FF Drifting.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 25 2008, 11:44 PM


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QUOTE (Rotisserie @ Today at 12:15 AM)
1.) powersliding in a FWD is stupid since it induces understeer. i was trying to emphasize the concept of carrying your current inertia through the turn. this doesnt involve doing front wheel burnouts and prolly explains why alot of ppl are curbing their FFs.

2.) yes the tubing is longer in the rear, but such things can be modified at the factory. they COULD make the brakes rear biased, but its not as effective since the weight is coming off the rear tires and onto the front(hint for those learning).

3.) for those who dont understand brake drifting, its as simple as priming your front shocks by briefly limit-braking to drop the suspension while driving and using the rebound to improve fromt grip so you can turn quickly, thus gaining higher polar inertia than you would just turning normally. you can use in combination with inertia drifting and throttle lift off to gain fairly good angle control. these and many other techniques are platform independant since brakes and suspension are generally the same for all makes and models. there are other special braking movement that can utilize the compound hydraulic nature of the typical master cylinder making the e-brake less needed.

4.) D1GP? dont really care. dont think i argued for anything involving FFs in D1GP

5.) four wheel drifting isnt any different than a 2 wheel drift except that it takes more balls to do it and not die in the process. and no, neutral balancing isnt ideal. its actually supposed to be slightly rear biased by a few percentages due to varying grip slippage from the steering tires. thus, most MR cars...

6.) atlantean, if you wanna learn about FF drifting, you might wanna steer away from drivers who are FR centric in their skillset. their advice isnt for you unless you're driving something with rear propulsion. go talk to the AWD ppl since their advice is more applicable.

No. But since the word filter won't let me just type "no," I'll be nice and go into detail about why I disagree. Complete with bullet points.

1.) Powersliding in FWD means you are understeering PERIOD. The term "Powersliding" is not interchangeable with "oversteering." Powersliding are the POWERed wheels SLIDING. The powered wheels are the front wheels, so if you are powersliding, that just means you are understeering.

2.) The tubing is long enough to reach the rear. I didn't say that they made the tubing longer on purpose. It's as long as it needs to be to fix the rear. Sure, they could make the front tubing longer, but that would be rather silly. As far as I know, most auto manufacturers make the tubing only as long as it needs to be to reach the wheels. Cost-saving and space-saving.

3.) Braking drifts are not going to happen in a FWD car. You can try to initiate one, sure (platform independent, as you said)... but when you try to stabilize and hold it, you can't. There is no power going to the rear wheels, so you have no way to alter their speed. The only way to alter the speed of the rear wheels is to use the parking brake, and that will only slow them down, not speed them up. I say again, it is not possible to attain this sort of drift in a FWD car. Period. It is physics.

4.) I'm not talking about the sport itself. I'm talking about definitions of drifting. There's the D1GP definition (alternatively, the Initial D definition, and the fanboy/ricer definition) and the Rally/F1/GP definition.

5.) Holy god that's ignorant. I'm not touching it. Sideways can touch it if he wants but I've already touched it way too many times in this thread.

6.) LOL. My first car was FWD, my current car is AWD. Good game. Also, most of the actual drifting information I have is from my father, who actually has done these things before. I trust him way more than a bunch of fanboys on the interwebs who drive their mom's Tercel and think they're hot shit.

I think that sums it up pretty well, eh?
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Cubits
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 06:29 AM


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A braking drift is turning the car on the brakes, and a fwd can do that. What it can't do is then transition that into a powerslide (d1gp "drift").
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 06:46 AM


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The Braking "Drift" would include holding said sliding position. As it is incapable of performing the whole maneuver, it is incapable of performing said maneuver.

But it can transition into a powerslide. Floor the gas! If you have enough power, you're sure to lose the front wheels! laugh.gif
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Cubits
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 08:15 AM


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Haven't we been over this a thousand times in this thread alone?

If you define drift in a way deemed so by the D1GP, then it all boils down to a rwd/awd powersliding. If you define drift in the most direct manner (read dictionary definition) or even in the original car borne manner, then any drivetrain is capable, and power has squat all to do with it.

This post has been edited by Cubits on Mar 26 2008, 09:08 AM
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 03:36 PM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ Today at 9:15 AM)
Haven't we been over this a thousand times in this thread alone?

If you define drift in a way deemed so by the D1GP, then it all boils down to a rwd/awd powersliding. If you define drift in the most direct manner (read dictionary definition) or even in the original car borne manner, then any drivetrain is capable, and power has squat all to do with it.

Since you basically just said what I did... I think we got confused. laugh.gif

*watches this thread die for another few months until some other n00blet revives it yet again*
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Rotisserie
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 09:19 PM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ Yesterday at 11:44 PM)
No. But since the word filter won't let me just type "no," I'll be nice and go into detail about why I disagree. Complete with bullet points.

1.) Powersliding in FWD means you are understeering PERIOD. The term "Powersliding" is not interchangeable with "oversteering." Powersliding are the POWERed wheels SLIDING. The powered wheels are the front wheels, so if you are powersliding, that just means you are understeering.

2.) The tubing is long enough to reach the rear. I didn't say that they made the tubing longer on purpose. It's as long as it needs to be to fix the rear. Sure, they could make the front tubing longer, but that would be rather silly. As far as I know, most auto manufacturers make the tubing only as long as it needs to be to reach the wheels. Cost-saving and space-saving.

3.) Braking drifts are not going to happen in a FWD car. You can try to initiate one, sure (platform independent, as you said)... but when you try to stabilize and hold it, you can't. There is no power going to the rear wheels, so you have no way to alter their speed. The only way to alter the speed of the rear wheels is to use the parking brake, and that will only slow them down, not speed them up. I say again, it is not possible to attain this sort of drift in a FWD car. Period. It is physics.

4.) I'm not talking about the sport itself. I'm talking about definitions of drifting. There's the D1GP definition (alternatively, the Initial D definition, and the fanboy/ricer definition) and the Rally/F1/GP definition.

5.) Holy god that's ignorant. I'm not touching it. Sideways can touch it if he wants but I've already touched it way too many times in this thread.

6.) LOL. My first car was FWD, my current car is AWD. Good game. Also, most of the actual drifting information I have is from my father, who actually has done these things before. I trust him way more than a bunch of fanboys on the interwebs who drive their mom's Tercel and think they're hot shit.

I think that sums it up pretty well, eh?

k, ill try this one more... rolleyes.gif

1: i think i pointed out in very plain english, and i quote:
QUOTE
-powersliding in a FWD is stupid since it induces understeer. i was trying to emphasize the concept of carrying your current inertia through the turn. this doesnt involve doing front wheel burnouts and prolly explains why alot of ppl are curbing their FFs.

try reading the posts.

2: the cost saving is only partially the case. it was long figured out that a degree of front biasing was a good thing for maximum braking and maneuverability (sp?). many cars have secondary modules inline to their brakes that can be internally adjusted for different levels of biasing. at this point, this hydraulic system might be more commonly incorporated into modern ABS systems or phased out.

*Edit: ive been flipping through my repair manuals. the parts are the metering valve and proprtioning valve. very useful if you know how to manipulate them.*

3: the fact that you say such a thing makes me doubt your knowledge of braking. automotive brakes, regardless of make and model, all function generally the same. all car suspensions, regardless of strength and weaknesses, function generally the same. all your doing is shifting weight to the front tires so you have a brief increase in front traction. it isnt imperative to change the tires speed as this isnt the point of a brake drift. you owning an AWD should realise this if you're actually able to drift it. Brake drifting is univerasl because all the nesesary requirements are met by all vehicles. Period. It is physics.

4: d1gp is a sport, not a definition. drifting is just drifting until it becomes convoluted with artificial prerequisites in an attempt to exclusivise one opinion or another. this is what happened when drifting developed into a 'sport' with loose judging standards. i mean what exactly is the scientific standard for "style"? its not a sport, its a show. its barely even a race since you can race-drift and still lose because you didnt go wide and make alot of tire smoke. the only standard is the spectacle. still fun to watch but thats the point, huh?

5: call it what you want. study some formula 1 when you get a chance. at those speeds, they're drifting most everything except the straightaways. and they're not as neutral as you've read.

6: dunno what your father has taught you, but based on your excessively dismissing views on FF, i doubt you can drive your AWD to its limit since the skillset and drivetrain limitations are the same for the most part. your own words are pretty damning, reflecting your ignorance on the physics of drifting with front propulsion active. Good game.

anyways, i have a friend like you. he collects the 'cool' cars, which is fine. he just got an AudiTT. but hes convinced that hes the shizzle since he tries to have the 'right' cars with the 'right' mods, yet his skillset is worthless and it shows in his driving. tis allright since hes still a hoot to occasionally hang with, but it takes alot of effort for him to get any of his cars to drive to their limits. one day he'll figure it out. thats when ill bring out the XR and we'll have some real fun.

in the end he's still my friend.

this has been fun, but i rather get back on the main subject instead of coaxing you to continue mindlessly parroting what joe q powerslide considers accepted dogma of drifting. next?

This post has been edited by Rotisserie on Mar 26 2008, 10:44 PM
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 26 2008, 10:50 PM


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QUOTE (Rotisserie @ Today at 10:19 PM)
k, ill try this one more... rolleyes.gif

1: i think i pointed out in very plain english, and i quote:

2: the cost saving is only partially the case. it was long figured out that a degree of front biasing was a good thing for maximum braking and maneuverability (sp?). many cars have secondary modules inline to their brakes that can be internally adjusted for different levels of biasing. at this point, this hydraulic system might be more commonly incorporated into modern ABS systems or phased out.

3: the fact that you say such a thing makes me doubt your knowledge of braking. automotive brakes, regardless of make and model, all function generally the same. all car suspensions, regardless of strength and weaknesses, function generally the same. all your doing is shifting weight to the front tires so you have a brief increase in front traction. it isnt imperative to change the tires speed as this isnt the point of a brake drift. you owning an AWD should realise this if you're actually able to drift it. Brake drifting is univerasl because all the nesesary requirements are met by all vehicles. Period. It is physics.

4: d1gp is a sport, not a definition. drifting is just drifting until it becomes convoluted with artificial prerequisites in an attempt to exclusivise one opinion or another. this is what happened when drifting developed into a 'sport' with loose judging standards. i mean what exactly is the scientific standard for "style"? its not a sport, its a show. its barely even a race since you can race-drift and still lose because you didnt go wide through the whole course. very subjective. still fun to watch.

5: call it what you want. study some formula 1 when you get a chance. at those speeds, they're drifting most everything except the straightaways. and they're not as neutral as you've read.

6: dunno what your father has taught you, but based on your excessively dismissing views on FF, i doubt you can drive your AWD to its limit since the skillset and drivetrain limitations are the same for the most part. your own words are pretty damning, reflecting your ignorance on the physics of drifting with front propulsion active. Good game.

7.) anyways, i have a friend like you. he collects the 'cool' cars, which is fine. he just got an AudiTT. but hes convinced that hes the shizzle since he tries to have the 'right' cars with the 'right' mods, yet his skillset is worthless and it shows in his driving. tis allright since hes still a hoot to occasionally hang with, but it takes alot of effort for him to get any of his cars to drive to their limits. one day he'll figure it out. thats when ill bring out the XR and we'll have some real fun. in the end he's still my friend.

8.) this has been fun, but i rather get back on the main subject instead of coaxing you to continue mindlessly parroting what joe q powerslide considers accepted dogma of drifting. next?

Aw hell no, newbie. You aren't getting away like that. Not when you've gone and made this damn topic alive again. I will continue until it goes into hibernation for another few months.

1.) It looked like you were still assosciating "powersliding" with "oversteering." If I was mistaken, then I apologize.

2.) The expensive, performance-oriented cars have brake controllers to adjust the brake bias. Normal everyday econoboxes do not. This leads me to believe that it's more cost-saving than it is any sort of actual intended bias design.

3.) Good job using my own words, except that you cannot hold a "braking drift" in a FWD car.

4.) I bolded the part where you made my point for me, since the rest has nothing to do with what I said. Again, I'm not using the term "D1GP" as in the sport. I just mean the "D1GP Definition" of drifting, which seems to be Sideways's definition of drifting, which is the Initial D definition of drifting, etc.

5.) Whatever a Honda Prelude would be considered, that seems to be a good start at a car that'd be set up well to perform the drifting you're talking about. Maybe it's not neutral. But I sure as hell know that it isn't set up to oversteer a bunch or understeer a lot.

6.) If you read earlier in this thread, you'll find that I'm not dismissive at all. I merely dismiss anyone who suggests that a FWD car is capable of performing the drifts seen in Initial D and D1GP, where someone holds a car at an extreme angle with throttle inputs. This is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE in a FWD car, PERIOD. I clearly state over and over again that four wheel drifting is NOT this same thing, and a FWD is capable of four wheel drifting. That is the reason why I didn't touch #5 in my earlier post, because you seemed to be making the suggestion that D1GP/InitialD Drifting was the same thing. They are not.

7.) That doesn't sound like me at all. You're new here, so you probably haven't read much that I've posted. Go around, check out the cars I've owned, the work I've done, all that. By no means to I go around collecting the "cool" cars and getting all the "right cars with the right parts." I bought a POS SVX that I'm fixing up. It's a fun car, but honestly your friend sounds like a rich kid with no clue about the car. I'm poor, so I just do what I can. laugh.gif

8.) Unlike you, I accept multiple definitions of drifting. And based on which definition the audience is referring to, a FWD car's ability to perform said drift changes. Sound reasonable?
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Dave Rodgers
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 12:31 AM


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E-Penis fight between someone with rich friends and a crap car, and someone with a crap car and wiseass parents. Woo!

I like where this thread is going.

user posted image

This post has been edited by Dave Rodgers on Mar 27 2008, 12:32 AM
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 01:24 AM


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QUOTE (Dave Rodgers @ Today at 1:31 AM)
E-Penis fight between someone with rich friends and a crap car, and someone with a crap car and wiseass parents. Woo!

And there it is! The comment from someone with neither a car nor relevance to this thread! grin2.gif
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Dave Rodgers
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 03:05 AM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ Today at 4:24 AM)
And there it is! The comment from someone with neither a car nor relevance to this thread! grin2.gif

Damn right I don't have a car, I drive a Truck. Cars are for kids. Men like me drive luxury barges or trucks, sittin' sideways and drinking Jamba and JUICE.


You kids keep fighting though. /popcorn

This post has been edited by Dave Rodgers on Mar 27 2008, 04:17 AM
Rotisserie
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 06:41 AM


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QUOTE (Dave Rodgers @ Today at 12:31 AM)
E-Penis fight between someone with rich friends and a crap car, and someone with a crap car and wiseass parents. Woo!

I like where this thread is going.

user posted image

my friend isnt rich. its a used audi TT. probably on its last legs in one respect or another. my friend wont care since hes probably gonna run it into the ground like all the others. like i said, he's a hoot. happy.gif

1: real men dont call trucks 'luxery barges', thats pretty foo-foo like. you probably bought it for 'the image'.
2: Jamba and juice qualifys as a mixed drink, which is also very foo-foo. Drink it straight or not at all, ya sissy. give the mixed drinks to your lady friends, where they belong.
3: sitting sideways is probably all that your trucks capable of, right? thumbsup.gif

anyways, you're right about one thing, and so i hang up this obviously pointless mini feud.

good fight. good night.
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Posted: Mar 27 2008, 11:58 AM


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QUOTE (Dave Rodgers @ Today at 12:31 AM)
E-Penis fight between someone with rich friends and a crap car, and someone with a crap car and wiseass parents. Woo!

I like where this thread is going.

user posted image

lolwut?

Also...


Drifting, is a controlled slide. If you have control of your car during any sort of slide, while maintaining the slide. Its drifting. By definition atleast. So an inertial drift such as swinging one way and then the other to make your car slide and over steer, is a drift, and FF cars can do this. Technique is way more complicated than powering over like you can with an FR or AWD.

Also calling a truck a luxury barge is the proper scientific term for trucks or xboxmobiles such as the escalade.

But don't mind me, continue arguing over your e-penises.
sideways
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 04:31 PM


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By definition? WHOS definition?
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 05:13 PM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Today at 5:31 PM)
By definition? WHOS definition?

By this guy's definition:

user posted image
Dave Rodgers
Posted: Mar 27 2008, 10:24 PM


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QUOTE (Rotisserie @ Yesterday at 9:41 AM)
1: real men dont call trucks 'luxery barges', thats pretty foo-foo like. you probably bought it for 'the image'.
2: Jamba and juice qualifys as a mixed drink, which is also very foo-foo. Drink it straight or not at all, ya sissy. give the mixed drinks to your lady friends, where they belong.
3: sitting sideways is probably all that your trucks capable of, right? thumbsup.gif


*cracks knuckles*

Ya know, you raise some good points. But in the end, I'm not the one arguing with a weeaboo about the finer points of figure-skating with a car(which is what drifting boils down to). And figure-skating, my fine friend, is without a doubt the gayest, sissiest thing since man invented the buttplug. It's right in the Encyclopedia, go check it out.

So I guess you win...sort of. happy.gif

QUOTE (Rotisserie @ Yesterday at 9:41 AM)
thats pretty foo-foo like.


...Have I mentioned that you sound like a third grader? I don't believe you're old enough to drive, enjoy talking about your friends' cars because that's all you'll going to be able to do until you grow up. whistling.gif

This post has been edited by Dave Rodgers on Mar 28 2008, 01:46 AM
Rotisserie
Posted: Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM


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QUOTE (Dave Rodgers @ Yesterday at 10:24 PM)

*cracks knuckles*

Ya know, you raise some good points. But in the end, I'm not the one arguing with a weeaboo about the finer points of figure-skating with a car(which is what drifting boils down to). And figure-skating, my fine friend, is without a doubt the gayest, sissiest thing since man invented the buttplug. It's right in the Encyclopedia, go check it out.

So I guess you win...sort of. happy.gif



...Have I mentioned that you sound like a third grader? I don't believe you're old enough to drive, enjoy talking about your friends' cars because that's all you'll going to be able to do until you grow up. whistling.gif

HA! touche.

but then again, his hobby is to buy rare used cars, typically on the end of their lifespans for one reason or another, then run the shit outta them in attempt to look cool. its a shame, cause hes never successful at fixing any of them.yep, hes a hoot. laugh.gif anyways, he cant drive worth flip. this past year, hes illed a rare subaru, a perfectly good XR, and a turboed Audi. all stock and fixably running when individually bought. they're all dead and/or repossessed in one way or another. i doubt this'll be any different.

and if you havent noticed, the previous conversation with namake wan was done. and i quote, 'next?'

unlike many who are into drifting, i concentrate on getting from A to B by the quickest means possible. it just turns out that a classic race drift is optimal at certain speeds and certain turning situations. beyond that, you're just showing off so you can getarrested or something. honestly, i find it rather retarded to be perpendicular to a curb without a reason that involves saving lap time. this is why i think of D1, in any form, is more a spectacle than a sport.

as for the whole 'third grader' comment, the way i respond to ppl tend to be reflective of the demeanor of whomever i having a particular discussion with at the time. in this case,look who i was arguing with? rolleyes.gif that was definitely my mistake. i concede that one.
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Posted: Mar 29 2008, 01:38 AM


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That's it. I have had ENOUGH of this thread. Can someone please LOCK this damn thing to hell and let it die!?
Meteor
Posted: Mar 29 2008, 01:56 AM


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QUOTE
Can someone please LOCK this damn thing to hell and let it die!?

What's the point?

That's how it is. Some random newbie revives this thread. Forum activity increases slightly for the moment. Then the thread dies again.

But if this thread was locked. Then you'd have threads about FF drifting popping up frequently.

If the thread remains unlocked, it's not going to see much posting in it anyway. But if this thread is locked, then some random newbie will just make another topic about FF drifting. And after that thread is locked, another newbie will step in.
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Posted: Mar 29 2008, 02:21 AM


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Then you'd have threads about FF drifting popping up frequently.

Each and EVERY single one of those threads would be TRASHED and its creator WARNED.
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Posted: May 13 2008, 06:05 AM


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https://youtube.com/watch?v=nI3lcwsMMPU

https://youtube.com/watch?v=w7xmQYRjQY4

There's 2 videos of Saudi kids drifting FF cars on the highway there. Those cars are all Camrys, Accords, and Corollas and stuff. It's pretty sweet, though very reckless and dangerous. Apparently, they just use high speed to lose the traction in the rear wheels, I didnt see any of them pulling the handbrake before doing it. The drifts arent short, either, they can hold them out pretty long. Problem is, they're going pretty high speeds to initiate them. Also, the roads in Saudi Arabia are pretty smooth and in good condition, so that could be a factor, too.
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Posted: May 13 2008, 08:21 AM


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no offence but anyone who has actualy drifted a car at a sanctioned event knows its hard enough with a RWD car and where most sanctioned events are consererned a FF car cannot get to high enough speeds to "drift" like those Saudi kids (no offence LANSD)

About calling drifting figureskating with cars. yes it is but they injected it with high octane racing fuel and testosteron and that makes it cool. LOL
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Posted: May 13 2008, 11:29 AM


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Well, I dont know. Those cars are stock Camrys, Accords, Hyundais, ect. Very soft suspension, and tire pressure, ect. I think if you gave them a FWD car actually set up to oversteer easily (like an autocross car), them drifting it at slower speeds could actually happen. Also, it's not like out of the box, every RWD car can win D1 and out of the box all FWD cars will understeer into a wall at 30mph. It comes down to tuning your car, out of the lot, cars dont come setup to drift, FWD or RWD.

Yeah, FWD isnt great to drift, but it's not impossible to make one drift, and you can setup an FWD car to oversteer some, too.

I dont really care much at all about drifting as a sport. It's not my thing, seeing stylized drifting. What I care about, is can an FWD possibly slide through a corner in a similar way an RWD powerslides or drifts, and I think the answer is yes on that one.

And I thought those Saudi videos were pretty neat, and I like the eurodance in them. Dont try at home, though, or in Saudi Arabia, for that matter.
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Posted: May 13 2008, 03:08 PM


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^ a drift in an ff vehicle is a powerslide end of story, it cannot go in a continuing circle without the rear wheels stopping, unlike a rwd or awd. Oh and this is off topic but wtf is up with that BS eternal life thing?
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Posted: May 13 2008, 04:54 PM


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QUOTE (LANSD @ Today at 7:05 AM)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nI3lcwsMMPU

https://youtube.com/watch?v=w7xmQYRjQY4

There's 2 videos of Saudi kids drifting FF cars on the highway there. Those cars are all Camrys, Accords, and Corollas and stuff. It's pretty sweet, though very reckless and dangerous. Apparently, they just use high speed to lose the traction in the rear wheels, I didnt see any of them pulling the handbrake before doing it. The drifts arent short, either, they can hold them out pretty long. Problem is, they're going pretty high speeds to initiate them. Also, the roads in Saudi Arabia are pretty smooth and in good condition, so that could be a factor, too.

While these videos were entertaining to watch and its drivers were definitely pretty ballsy and more than decent at what they were doing, I'd hardly call it drifting. They were just getting their cars to go sideways on the straights, going left and right and left and right again, eventually getting the car to spin out. Not quite drifting, and just because they're using a presumably stock Camry or Accord or whatever doesn't make it drifting either.

Get a video of those drivers "drifting" through a course with actual corners and maybe I'll give them more credit, especially if it's a video without the gay ass music and without the driver giving his passenger a high-five every time he turns the steering wheel.
Cyrus430
Posted: May 13 2008, 04:56 PM


Outrageous!
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Joined: Nov 16th 2004
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I agree FF cannot drift though they can powerslide... now we know this. Why is there an argument still going on about this?

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