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> Clutchless Shifting
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 18 2010, 11:51 AM


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Wanted to ask our experts here- how is this technique IF done perfectly? If you pop out and into gears without having to force the shifter, without feeling any strain, without grinding anything aka perfectly matching the revs?
DigiBunny
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 03:41 PM


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Something to do with tricking the synchros. It's a given that revs drop and rise when you shift up and down, so I believe it's giving the car JUST the right amount of throttle to bring it up to the next gear ratio's RPM, or conversely releasing just enough so that it drops, in order to upshift or downshift. Someone correct my if I'm wrong, but what you do is basically move faster than the synchros can keep up with you.
JKaiba
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 03:42 PM


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QUOTE (Skv012a @ 3 hours, 51 minutes ago)
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I want to answer your question properly... but in order to do that I need to understand it. Are you asking HOW to do clutchless shifting? Or what are its benefits maybe? Your second sentence wasn't a complete thought.
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:13 PM


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QUOTE (JKaiba @ 30 minutes, 32 seconds ago)
I want to answer your question properly... but in order to do that I need to understand it. Are you asking HOW to do clutchless shifting? Or what are its benefits maybe? Your second sentence wasn't a complete thought.

Where the heck did you even get that quote?? I'm asking how do you guys feel about, in plain simple english.
Steve
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:21 PM


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QUOTE (Skv012a @ 8 minutes, 49 seconds ago)
Where the heck did you even get that quote?? I'm asking how do you guys feel about, in plain simple english.

Actually, your sentence structure looks like it was formed by a 3rd grader. What do you want to know?
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:25 PM


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Are there any benefits besides not having to use/strain the clutch? Would there still be synchro gear wear/tear/damage if the shifts are smoothly and easily?
JKaiba
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:50 PM


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If there's no grinding I don't think there's anything other than the usual selector fork wear. Otherwise if you miss the gear you get lots of little metal bits in your tranny oil and you can break things. It's not something to be doing unnecessarily.
sideways
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 05:07 PM


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Clutchless shifting is a little harder on the synchros unless you are PERFECTLY spot on. With proper technique you can be off a few hundred rpms (ive done it with as much as 500) and still get it to shift into gear very smoothly with no clunking/thunking/grinding/whining.

Whatre the benefits of a clutchless shift? Not many- and depends on how you want to look at the situation. Youre not slipping the clutch, whee- but synchros cost more to replace (and are a lot more difficult to) than a clutch. I can only think of two benefits to clutchless shifting- One if youre being extremely lazy in stop/go traffic. When living in socal i dealt daily with about an hour of stop/go traffic traveling a distance of a bit of 20 miles. I would resort to clutchless shifting when i was feeling particularly lazy.

Only other benefit is it can be a handy trick if you clutch hydraulics ever go out, its the difference between being stranded and gimping yourself home.
peemyTNBow
Posted: Jun 18 2010, 09:23 PM


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How do you do proper clutchless shifting?

Spend $9000 dollars and get a PPG Dogbox for your Z.

That way when you bang up and down gears without clutching you won't have tranny guts spilling out.

Otherwise, drive the way a 3 pedal car should be driven.
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 18 2010, 10:36 PM


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Sounds good. Neat trick to know, but use as last resort. I'd say it seems like a very good way to learn where the shift points are, but considering the potential damage involved it not worth it.
sideways
Posted: Jun 19 2010, 02:18 PM


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QUOTE (BmwNeoType @ Yesterday, 10:23 PM)
How do you do proper clutchless shifting?

Spend $9000 dollars and get a PPG Dogbox for your Z.

That way when you bang up and down gears without clutching you won't have tranny guts spilling out.

Otherwise, drive the way a 3 pedal car should be driven.

How do you do it properly? You shift without grinding the gears and making nasty noises/smells tongue.gif Havent tried it in the Z yet, only done it in the corolla.
Bubs
Posted: Jun 19 2010, 03:39 PM


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I don't really see any use to clutchless shifting, so I haven't done it in any of my vehicles - except that one time that the clutch cable snapped on my Kawasaki, but that's a motorcycle so that doesn't count here. tongue.gif
CrypticApathy
Posted: Jun 19 2010, 05:28 PM


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Unless your clutch goes bye bye on you, theres no benefit to it. All your doing is putting wear and tear on a part(s) thats expensive to replace. Think of it as the benefit of engine braking vs using your brakes to slow down or stop. 1 is a 30 (break pads) dollar part to replace the other is a 1k+ (transmission) dollar part to replace. Which would you rather spend money on?
Mr. Shine
Posted: Jun 20 2010, 03:28 AM


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QUOTE (CrypticApathy @ 9 hours, 59 minutes ago)
Unless your clutch goes bye bye on you, theres no benefit to it. All your doing is putting wear and tear on a part(s) thats expensive to replace. Think of it as the benefit of engine braking vs using your brakes to slow down or stop. 1 is a 30 (break pads) dollar part to replace the other is a 1k+ (transmission) dollar part to replace. Which would you rather spend money on?

But my brakes do actually go on me at times laugh.gif
backalleyracer
Posted: Jun 20 2010, 06:24 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Jun 18 2010, 05:07 PM)
Only other benefit is it can be a handy trick if you clutch hydraulics ever go out, its the difference between being stranded and gimping yourself home.

this......


I had to do this on many occasions,

one time my master cylinder some how went dry (which I later found out why) and I gimped myself to a gas station, came across a few stop signs too, with which I just left the car in gear, and started it up in gear again.

Btw, this sort of thing only seems to happen when you are in the middle of no where
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 20 2010, 08:21 AM


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Come to think of it, if my Z falls under the slave cylinder recall, this might come in handy if it decides to crap out on me one fine day.
peemyTNBow
Posted: Jun 20 2010, 10:01 AM


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QUOTE (Mr. Shine @ 6 hours, 33 minutes ago)
But my brakes do actually go on me at times laugh.gif

Get Endless brake pads. You won't have that problem ever again. Chipping compound, not having heat resistance, w/e you can think of.

This post has been edited by BmwNeoType on Jun 20 2010, 10:02 AM
avraell
Posted: Jun 20 2010, 10:13 AM


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So, wait, you can clutchless shift on ANY manual car?

Do I just raise the revs and jerk the shifter into the next gear? (My synchros are virtually gone anyway)
sideways
Posted: Jun 20 2010, 01:23 PM


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Not that I typically "condone" doing it- but since youve asked.. If youre synchros are gone its going to make doing this a lot harder. Good synchros can easily take up the "slack" so to speak and compensate for the difference in rpms without causing grinds. No synchros means youre going to have to be all that much more precise in matching the rpms.

Dont "raise" the revs, "match" the rpms. If youre shifting up, the rpms need to go down, if youre downshifting, the rpms need to go up. Do not jerk the shifter into gear. At least imo, I wouldnt. Any time ive ever managed what i consider a "clean" shift without the use of a clutch the force on the shift has been minimal, the same effort one would use as if shifting with the clutch down is all ive ever needed.

Practical thought: If your synchros are bad the transmission is probably hurting, or will be soon. I wouldnt put it through the stresses of shifting clutchlessly. Id recommend you learn how to double-clutch properly. It doesnt matter how bad the synchros are, a proper double-clutch will avoid all issues when shifting (youre essentially doing the job of the synchros manually).

QUOTE (crypticapathy)
1 is a 30 (break pads) dollar part to replace the other is a 1k+ (transmission) dollar part to replace. Which would you rather spend money on?


In my case brake pads for my car are 150+, and transmissions are 100. Swapping a transmission takes me maaaybe an hour so... *ponders*
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 21 2010, 12:53 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Yesterday, 1:23 PM)
Id recommend you learn how to double-clutch properly.  It doesnt matter how bad the synchros are, a proper double-clutch will avoid all issues when shifting (youre essentially doing the job of the synchros manually). 

An outdated heel-toe or is it still a useful, similar technique?
avraell
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 10:57 AM


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^Not really. Besides heel and toe isn't exactly outdated, you still need to rev match on downshifts unless you are driving a 370Z, so learn it. Don't start with corners though...

QUOTE
Practical thought: If your synchros are bad the transmission is probably hurting, or will be soon. I wouldnt put it through the stresses of shifting clutchlessly. Id recommend you learn how to double-clutch properly. It doesnt matter how bad the synchros are, a proper double-clutch will avoid all issues when shifting (youre essentially doing the job of the synchros manually).


Yea, I realize about the stress smile.gif As for normal driving, it seems to work fine with just rev matching though, so I never double clutch.
JKaiba
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 11:18 AM


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QUOTE (Skv012a @ Today, 12:53 AM)
An outdated heel-toe or is it still a useful, similar technique?

I've told you this once already in another thread and I was far ruder than this! Double clutching IS NOT HEEL TOE!!! Go and look it up.
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 12:22 PM


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The only benefit is being able to drive if your clutch happens to wear down way to much. while out racing one night I pretty much destroyed my disc to the point where it would barely grab and. back then I had little money and for about a week I had to shift with no clutch. It sucked because each time I came to a complete stop, I had to cut the car off put it in first and go...tons of strain on the starter when on hills. I am able to actually downshift as well with no clutch lol fun stuff.

also for anyone who drives trucks like me, floating the gears is common.
Mr. Shine
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 01:55 PM


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QUOTE (Skv012a @ Today, 12:53 AM)
An outdated heel-toe or is it still a useful, similar technique?

Heel-toe is used for rev-matching as you down-shift and brake.

Double-clutching is used for rev-matching, but has nothing to do with braking in itself. You can double-clutch and heel-toe at the same time.
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 02:21 PM


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.... technically double clutching only applies to very large trucks...

I know what you mean but in this situation double clutching=clutch kicking.

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