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> Forget FF, RWD vs. AWD!!!!, give your not-stupid opinion here...
EA99
Posted: Feb 26 2008, 09:56 AM


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QUOTE (Apex Carver @ Feb 23 2008, 11:14 AM)
Haha, lift throttle at mid turn in AWD is worse... wink2.gif

throttle lift in an MR mid corner is even worse smile.gif
Jardim
Posted: Feb 26 2008, 04:46 PM


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QUOTE (EA99 @ Today at 12:56 PM)
throttle lift in an MR mid corner is even worse smile.gif

HAHAHAHAHHA you sound like you experienced that or something.... hahahahahaha
RisfortypeR
Posted: Feb 26 2008, 11:11 PM


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Traction control systems are pretty capable these days. Friend of mine went to the track (Streets of Willow), did a few runs with TCS on/off. He actually put out better times with the TCS on after learning to change his lines and change his approach to entering a corner.

I think AWD (not TCS) saved me over the weekend...I drove into a HUGE puddle in the highway in the carpool lane, hydroplaned like crazy, the car started veering towards the left...towards the center divider. But I've been practicing many steering correction techniques in wet/low traction conditions for months now and I was able to throw the car out of the puddle and 1 lane to the right, right before the car veered completely over to the left. Had this happened in my previous FF cars I can forsee an even worse outcome.
Frost
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 06:02 AM


Time to slam into 2nd gear!
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No offence but had you had better tires, FF or AWD be damned, you wouldn't had slid period. The insurance company wouldn't have gone "Oh noes, you didn't have AWD so that's why you crashed".

AWD only "saves" your bacon when you actually need to use acceleration to get yourself out of a predicament.

The only time I can see how AWD would "save" me, is when the road is extremely loose and I'm going up/downhill. Gravel tires are great but when the ground is loose, you tend to need all four tires to hunt for any traction available compared just two with FWD or RWD.
EA99
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 07:21 AM


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QUOTE (murphanation @ Today at 8:46 AM)
HAHAHAHAHHA you sound like you experienced that or something.... hahahahahaha

I have? Though, it could be something to do with the piece of shit yokohama's I have.
Cubits
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 07:30 AM


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QUOTE (EA99 @ Today at 7:21 AM)
I have? Though, it could be something to do with the piece of shit yokohama's I have.

Heheh, love that aspect of the AW11, you can always tighten your line! No nanny-state, holding your hand, saving you from yourself crap in that car.

But all things being said, even the AW11's lift-oversteer isn't as impressive/sudden as the 205's. Luckily the engine is in the front, so there isn't a lot of weight getting away from you.
EA99
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 07:47 AM


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and the SW20 takes the cake =p you lift in that while cornering, just a bit and you're over steering!!
Cyrus430
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 09:33 PM


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QUOTE (Frost @ Today at 6:02 AM)
AWD only "saves" your bacon when you actually need to use acceleration to get yourself out of a predicament.

Well there's always the concept or rain, or snow, and mud. The AWD also helps in turning.

This is just from my perspective though.
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sabishii
Posted: Feb 27 2008, 11:24 PM


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QUOTE (Cyrus430 @ Today at 12:33 AM)
Well there's always the concept or rain, or snow, and mud. The AWD also helps in turning.

This is just from my perspective though.

How does AWD help in turning?
Cubits
Posted: Feb 28 2008, 05:22 AM


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AWD being safer is such a marketing masterstroke, right up there with four wheel discs.
Cyrus430
Posted: Feb 28 2008, 10:15 AM


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QUOTE (sabishii @ Yesterday at 11:24 PM)
How does AWD help in turning?

Well in my case, the "GTO" has I believe All-Wheel Steering or something like that. Which is where all of the wheels turn to give a better response.
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DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Feb 28 2008, 11:24 AM


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QUOTE (Cyrus430 @ Today at 11:15 AM)
Well in my case, the "GTO" has I believe All-Wheel Steering or something like that. Which is where all of the wheels turn to give a better response.

But then that would be attributed to the actual four-wheel steering unit, not the AWD system.
Frost
Posted: Feb 28 2008, 01:00 PM


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AWDs do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT make cars safer. They do NOT give more "more" traction. Traction is a function of the coefficient of friction which is dependant on the two surfaces in contact PERIOD. Even surface area doesn't increase traction (which is a force) per se. It only makes it more consistant.

As I have continuously stressed in the past, AWD's just give you more chances to FIND any available traction since it uses 4 wheels as opposed to 2.
Cyrus430
Posted: Feb 28 2008, 01:14 PM


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QUOTE (DeeezNuuuts83 @ Today at 11:24 AM)
But then that would be attributed to the actual four-wheel steering unit, not the AWD system.

I stand corrected... lol...
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Cubits
Posted: Feb 29 2008, 06:56 AM


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QUOTE (Frost @ Yesterday at 1:00 PM)
AWDs do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT make cars safer. They do NOT give more "more" traction. Traction is a function of the coefficient of friction which is dependant on the two surfaces in contact PERIOD. Even surface area doesn't increase traction (which is a force) per se. It only makes it more consistant.

As I have continuously stressed in the past, AWD's just give you more chances to FIND any available traction since it uses 4 wheels as opposed to 2.

Surface area does increase traction! It only doesn't if you're abiding to simplified highschool friction, which neglects to take into account the "keying" effect of two surfaces in contact. It's significant enough to warrant running wider tyres on cars.

Narrower tyres have more stable contact patches than wider ones, due to the obvious loss of carcass rigidity across the tread. Therefore, they would have more consistent traction, and smoother dropoff (and less load sensitivity).
Cyrus430
Posted: Feb 29 2008, 07:20 AM


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Cubits could you like simplify please? I'm a bit lost... I got half of what you said unsure.gif
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Frost
Posted: Feb 29 2008, 08:07 AM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ Today at 6:56 AM)
Surface area does increase traction! It only doesn't if you're abiding to simplified highschool friction, which neglects to take into account the "keying" effect of two surfaces in contact. It's significant enough to warrant running wider tyres on cars.

Narrower tyres have more stable contact patches than wider ones, due to the obvious loss of carcass rigidity across the tread. Therefore, they would have more consistent traction, and smoother dropoff (and less load sensitivity).

Keyword being more CONSISTENT traction but not MORE TRACTION.

Surface area plays a huge role when determining when you gain or lose the available traction but does not directly factor into how much traction can physically exist given the same surfaces in contact. Thus wider / narrower tires are used to maintain maximum contact between the surfaces to add in applying as much force as possible between the two. How much force can physically be applied goes back to the coefficient. High school formula may not be the best way to describe it but it is heading the proper direction.
sideways
Posted: Feb 29 2008, 01:32 PM


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QUOTE (Frost @ Yesterday at 2:00 PM)
Even surface area doesn't increase traction (which is a force) per se. It only makes it more consistant.


False. That high-school equation for friction is very flawed and only works some of the time (Like their weird I before e except after c rule). It leaves out one very important factor that totaly fudges the results. Adhesion. Tires have this neat-o ability to "stick" the floor. More sticky surface, means more friction/traction.

Extreme example, take 2 equal size pieces of tape. Fold one in half (Sticky side out), and place it on the table, and place the other unfolded one sticky side down on a table. They both weigh the same, so their whole mass vs surface area will be the same. Which is going to hold better?

Adhesion has a funny way of messing with things wink2.gif

This post has been edited by sideways on Feb 29 2008, 01:46 PM
Cubits
Posted: Mar 1 2008, 07:12 AM


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QUOTE (Frost @ Yesterday at 8:07 AM)
Keyword being more CONSISTENT traction but not MORE TRACTION.

Surface area plays a huge role when determining when you gain or lose the available traction but does not directly factor into how much traction can physically exist given the same surfaces in contact. Thus wider / narrower tires are used to maintain maximum contact between the surfaces to add in applying as much force as possible between the two. How much force can physically be applied goes back to the coefficient. High school formula may not be the best way to describe it but it is heading the proper direction.

Let me reiterate for you, Frost:

Wider tyres have more grip than narrower tyres because the simple highschool model of friction is wrong. The molecular-level interaction between the tyre and the road results in what looks like a tiny zipper arrangement. This leads to increased grip despite the pressure reduction over a larger contact patch. Look up things like "stiction" to see examples.

NARROWER tyres have more consistent grip, because a wider tyre is more susceptible to deformation. F1 tyres have internal structures (like webbing) to make them massively stiff against most deformations (whilst still being springy vertically, a very important characteristic!). A tyre which deforms more easily has higher load sensitivity, and will be less progressive.

Fitting a tyre to an over-wide rim will stiffen it, improving response and progressiveness. This is why drift cars and older F1 cars run tyres that look this shape from profile: \__/ as opposed to (__).

I could go into technical detail on the stupidity of fitting giant wheels to cars, but I'd be getting rather off-topic. tongue.gif

Frost
Posted: Mar 1 2008, 09:37 AM


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Brb, apparently I need to pay SAE for papers I used to get for free now.

Bastards.

EDIT: Actually Cubits, I wouldn't mind if you created an external thread to this. After all, if we disagree, the mutual beneficial thing to do is to put forth each other's arguement systematically until either something is proven correct (and we both learn) or we agree to disagree in that there isn't a conclusive response yet. So yes, even if I am wrong, I would like to be shown how I am wrong so we can learn more. That is, after all, my goal.

2nd EDIT: I've ordered the papers from SAE. One involves Central Tire Inflation-Deflation System (CTI-DS) on tire frictional force on ice and the other one is the classical paper from 1971 by GM and BF Goodrich on traction and road surface. The first paper I could download by PDF (locked) and seems to indicate the following:

"The advantages of the Central Tire Inflation-Deflation System (CTI-DS) for a vehicle on an iced/compacted snow highway were demonstrated in theory and in experiment. For improving the stability and controllability of a vehicle on an iced or snowed highway, the inflation pressure was recommended to lower to a certain extent." (X.D. Peng, Y.B. Xie, K. H. Guo).

While it mentions improvement in stability and controllability by lowering pressure (to an extent), I was looking for more along the lines of improving singular ability of traction between two surfaces with the relationship (if any) to surface area. The paper is interesting to certain aspect (since it seems to prove and disprove my point in a way) but not 100% directly related. By traction, I am referring to the force that prevents a tire from slipping on a road. So in my sense, I am putting a number on the force that exists between tire A against road versus tire A against ice.

The search continues.

This post has been edited by Frost on Mar 1 2008, 10:11 AM
Möbius
Posted: Mar 1 2008, 02:42 PM


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The bottom line is that AWD's are safer since they brake better than other drive trains. tongue.gif
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Jardim
Posted: Mar 2 2008, 11:54 PM


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AWD has forces both pulling and pushing the car, so i guess it could be faster off the line or something even with wheelspin
MattW
Posted: Mar 3 2008, 01:28 PM


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QUOTE (murphanation @ Today at 3:54 AM)
AWD has forces both pulling and pushing the car, so i guess it could be faster off the line or something even with wheelspin

Thank you Captain Obvious!
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Posted: Mar 3 2008, 04:54 PM


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*Is blown away by how awesome this thread has become*
Jardim
Posted: Mar 3 2008, 09:40 PM


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QUOTE (MattSAF1 @ Yesterday at 4:28 PM)
Thank you Captain Obvious!

your welcome ! dry.gif LOL actually im wrong, not all AWD systems are like that (atessa ETS for example)
i guess AWD's are just too complicated.... although i wouldnt mind having an evo (gives deeez a mean jelous look)

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