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> This rattle... D:
Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 12 2013, 10:09 PM


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So for the last few weeks to around a month now, I've been hearing this really odd rattling noise in my Jeep. I have no idea what it is, and I really have no idea where exactly to look to find out what the problem really is. I only know that the rattle tends to happen when I'm going from a stop in first gear (super low RPMs, under 1000) and sometimes I'll hear it when my car is just sitting in neutral at a light and I'm not touching any pedals at all.


Now, to clarify and maybe help, the noise is somewhere in front of me. So, it's by the engine area and it reminds me of some sort of metal that is making the noise.

I really don't know if I was clear enough, it's hard to explain it over a forums, it's much easier in person. I know something is wrong though, and I just wish I knew what it was. I don't have the money to get a shop to diagnose the issue.


Thanks in advance. biggrin.gif
Vehicle: 1993 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L I6 with a manual transmission.
Rudy
Posted: Mar 12 2013, 11:07 PM


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Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 12 2013, 11:14 PM


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It goes away. I only hear it when the RPMs are in the >1000 - 1000 range. Sometimes I'll hear it at maybe around 1200 RPMs but I'd only hear it if I have the windows shut and no music or sound going on inside the vehicle and I'm just cruising.
Rudy
Posted: Mar 12 2013, 11:19 PM


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Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 12 2013, 11:33 PM


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It doesn't seem to. It's either rattling or not rattling at all. A buddy of mine said it might have something to do with the clutch but I'm not sure because earlier I was delivering pizzas and I had my car in neutral at a complete stop with the engine still on and when I walked by I heard it rattle a few more times. A somewhat "easy" way to duplicate the rattle is if I nearly kill the motor, but unless I decide to add extra gas (which means I'm probably riding the clutch if I do that) I tend to almost always hear it.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 12:36 AM


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Engine mounts? I mean normally a rattle at low RPMs I would think would be clutch-related too, our truck does that every so often. So I agree with Dorifuta, my first guess would be clutch-related. But if it's not RPM-related at all and doesn't stop/start by touching the clutch my next thought would be engine mounts. Vibration-related...maybe?
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Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 13 2013, 01:12 AM


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Well, should it be something I should be seriously worried about? I mean most of the time the sound comes from when I'm releasing the clutch and pressing onto the gas to go but I also hear it when I turn off the car I get one last rattle. :/
Tygur
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 02:57 AM


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+1 on engine mounts, trasmission mount, or obviously some kind of screw loose under the dash or something. You get a lot of car vibration when idle or low rpms? or when take your foot off throttle does it clunk at all?

This post has been edited by Tygur on Mar 13 2013, 02:59 AM
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 04:07 AM


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Between my straight 6 BMW's, I think I've got some of the noisiest clutches in the world. If I release the clutch in neutral in my e28, you can hear it audibly from outside the car, and if I'm slowly moving my z4 and get on the pedal, it chatters pretty loudly.

You might have a similar situation. I'd like to think it's clutch springs in your case. I assume the disc has damping springs between the friction material and the splines. If those springs are worn, they'll rattle on the tranny input shaft at idle. They won't rattle under power because they'll be under compression. I wouldn't worry about the noise. If you have an inspection port on the bellhousing, it's worth checking to see how much clutch you have left. When you replace it, that'll probably cure your rattle.

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Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 05:07 AM


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QUOTE (Cyinide @ 3 hours, 55 minutes ago)
Well, should it be something I should be seriously worried about? I mean most of the time the sound comes from when I'm releasing the clutch and pressing onto the gas to go but I also hear it when I turn off the car I get one last rattle. :/

You never hear it with the clutch in ever? You only hear it when you release the clutch? Does it happen when you release the clutch in neutral or only in gear?

If it happens whenever you release the clutch regardless of gear that's a textbook input bearing/pressure plate/clutch assembly problem. It's somewhere in the clutch area. If it doesn't actually seem affected by clutch position (for instance if you rev up in neutral suddenly to create a body vibration and the noise happens temporarily) it could be loose exhaust or an engine/transmission mount or something.

The more information you can provide from doing more testing, the closer people can get to pinning down the issue. Us guys on the web can only go on the information we see. wink2.gif
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Spaz
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 05:41 AM


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Could be a heat shield that has lost its insulation or is cracked and just barely rattling at low revs. Any clutch rattle should be dependent on it being engaged or disengaged, and when it presents itself should tell you what it is.

Save for a loose spring in the disk, that'll rattle pretty consistently.

A video would most certainly help.
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RedsunsF1
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 06:41 AM


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+1 on the video.

I really don't think it has anything to do with the clutch. Like Spaz said, I think it could be an exhaust heat shield that could have come loose and when was the last time you got an oil change? My friends jeep had a rattling sound because the oil was old, once we changed it out the noise went away.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 07:17 AM


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QUOTE (FC_spec @ 36 minutes, 13 seconds ago)
+1 on the video.

I really don't think it has anything to do with the clutch. Like Spaz said, I think it could be an exhaust heat shield that could have come loose and when was the last time you got an oil change? My friends jeep had a rattling sound because the oil was old, once we changed it out the noise went away.

If it were oil it wouldn't have anything to do with idle and would get worse under load and revs. I know because when I had a dead oil sending unit the only way to tell that the car was low on oil while driving was that the lifters would start tapping. derp.gif I really really really really really doubt it's oil-related from the symptoms he's provided so far.

It could most certainly be exhaust, like a loose heat shield or a loose bolt or something like that creating resonance. I know that Sensation! has a dead catalytic converter on his 240SX that sounds like a can of rocks but it sounds that way under load and has absolutely nothing to do with the clutch so again, not really considering it.

So far he's suggested that it does have something to do with the clutch so disregarding that would be silly until he presents evidence otherwise. He really needs to do some more testing to see exactly what does/does not cause the sound.
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MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 08:55 AM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 1 hour, 37 minutes ago)
If it were oil it wouldn't have anything to do with idle and would get worse under load and revs. I know because when I had a dead oil sending unit the only way to tell that the car was low on oil while driving was that the lifters would start tapping. derp.gif

And that's when you started spraying fuel all over the engine bay, right?

There's a easier way to see how much oil you [don't] have. Start thinking with your dipstick, Jimmy.

As for the Jeep, about all engines vibrate at low RPMs, smoothening out as you speed them up. There's a solid chance that something attached to the engine, like a heatshield or accessory, could be loose. Open the hood at idle, use your eyes and ears, Jeeps are tall so you should get a great view of everything underneath. If it's coming from the transmission bellhousing, you've narrowed it down to a clutch issue.

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This post has been edited by Cactus on Mar 13 2013, 08:55 AM
Spaz
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 10:20 AM


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QUOTE (Cactus @ 1 hour, 25 minutes ago)
As for the Jeep, about all engines vibrate at low RPMs, smoothening out as you speed them up. There's a solid chance that something attached to the engine, like a heatshield or accessory, could be loose. Open the hood at idle, use your eyes and ears, Jeeps are tall so you should get a great view of everything underneath. If it's coming from the transmission bellhousing, you've narrowed it down to a clutch issue.

The thing to consider is that a straight 6 is natrually balanced and won't vibrate near as much as, say, my motor or a V6. The only time he'll really get decent vibration from it is when the revs drop as he lets the clutch out, which is more likely why he's associating it with the clutch.
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Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 13 2013, 10:35 AM


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It only seems to happen mainly in first gear. I do have a cracked exhaust though, it's been that way for a long time. I got my oil changed maybe 3 weeks ago if that. I'm not sure how well a video will work, but I'll attempt it. No idea if my phone would pick up the noise while I'm in the vehicle.

So I managed to get a 4 second clip of the noise. I'm not sure how helpful it will be though. Now, my next problem is that I don't know how to upload things to here. ermm2.gif

This post has been edited by Cyinide on Mar 13 2013, 01:13 PM
Tygur
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 03:37 PM


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YouTube or photobucket works well for vids. Don't know much about clutch issues, never had one go out in me in any way, so I won't be much help in that area, but from experience, most noises when slow or idling come from mounts, loose bolts (like on the heatshields as mentioned earlier or on trim). Something about the resonance, no matter then engine, sometimes it can't be felt personally but the car feels it. I've had it happen on a 4.0L Jeep 6, and on a 7M-GTE supra so inline 6s aren't immune. But it very well could be something else.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 04:08 PM


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QUOTE (Cactus @ 7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
And that's when you started spraying fuel all over the engine bay, right?

There's a easier way to see how much oil you [don't] have. Start thinking with your dipstick, Jimmy.

As for the Jeep, about all engines vibrate at low RPMs, smoothening out as you speed them up. There's a solid chance that something attached to the engine, like a heatshield or accessory, could be loose. Open the hood at idle, use your eyes and ears, Jeeps are tall so you should get a great view of everything underneath. If it's coming from the transmission bellhousing, you've narrowed it down to a clutch issue.

Think with the dipstick! My gosh, why didn't I think of that!? Goodness that is just so darned easy, I'll just reach into the engine bay some time during the 250-mile range my car gets going down the 5...

Oh wait. derp.gif

Sure I check when stopped but I was specifically referring to being on the road, like during the 400-mile trips between NorCal and SoCal.

Also as for resonance, note that resonance and vibration are not the same thing. An engine can be perfectly balanced and still create resonance through the exhaust system.

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Tygur
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 04:18 PM


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I mean that there could be a slight vibration in the engine that is amplified in certain areas because of resonance in the way it is built.

Vibration is oscillation, causes resonance, quoth thy dictionary "Resonance: Physics; The increase in amplitude of oscillation or vibration of an electric or mechanical system exposed to a periodic force whose frequency is equal or very close to the natural undamped frequency of the system"

All I'm trying to say is there could be things that you can't feel that are amplified in certain parts of the vehicle, where you can't tell, but you can hear the effects. Balanced does not mean nonexistent, there's always going to be some vibration.
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 05:24 PM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 1 hour, 16 minutes ago)
Think with the dipstick! My gosh, why didn't I think of that!? Goodness that is just so darned easy, I'll just reach into the engine bay some time during the 250-mile range my car gets going down the 5...

Oh wait. derp.gif

Chill out, man. I'm just poking fun. Mostly at a certain Iowan.

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Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 05:44 PM


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QUOTE (Tygur @ 1 hour, 25 minutes ago)
I mean that there could be a slight vibration in the engine that is amplified in certain areas because of resonance in the way it is built.

Vibration is oscillation, causes resonance, quoth thy dictionary "Resonance: Physics; The increase in amplitude of oscillation or vibration of an electric or mechanical system exposed to a periodic force whose frequency is equal or very close to the natural undamped frequency of the system"

All I'm trying to say is there could be things that you can't feel that are amplified in certain parts of the vehicle, where you can't tell, but you can hear the effects. Balanced does not mean nonexistent, there's always going to be some vibration.

Okay... but referring to a vehicle (this is the context we're talking about, yes?) there's a vibrational problem and a resonance problem. One is not the same as the other. In this context, a vibrational problem would be something like busted engine mounts. A resonance problem would be an issue in the exhaust system creating a resonance making a whole bunch of noise without shaking the car.

Context. Context, context, context.
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Tygur
Posted: Mar 13 2013, 07:32 PM


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There is that, but I don't mean a sound resonance. I mean an engine mount on its way out, but not enough that you feel it, vibrates at a resonance that sets off other things because of its frequency... but this shouldn't be a discussion about that, just meticulously check it by ear when you get a chance. Not rocket science.
Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 18 2013, 02:26 PM


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Yeah I know that I haven't posted the video yet, I just haven't got around to it yet. I did notice however, that when I was driving last night I hit some bumps in the road and I could hear the rattle, which makes me believe that it's just something that is loose/broken.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 18 2013, 05:09 PM


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If it's loose/broken, start with the easy stuff first and move on to the hard stuff. Exhaust first. Check the heat shield for the catalytic converter, then check the bolts holding the sections of exhaust together, then check the actual exhaust-to-frame mounts.

If the whole exhaust checks out, then it's time for an inspection of the engine and transmission mounts.
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Cyinide
  Posted: Mar 24 2013, 09:21 PM


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I think I might have figured out an idea of where the noise is possibly coming from. It looks like it might be somewhere above the transfer case area or so. I'm not entirely sure because I looked at it during work tonight. I'm not sure what to do though. I'm thinking about just sending it to the dealership and see if they can look at it. As it is there are 3 open recalls on my specific vehicle that they would fix, so I could always perhaps ask them to take a look and see if it's just something that is lose and could be easily fixed without much effort.

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