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|Initial D World - Discussion Board / Forums > Technical Discussion > My 1999 Accord EX (V6, Sedan)|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 3 2016, 05:44 PM|
| EDIT: The problem was solved, so this is more or less just a general thread about my poor car.
Hi folks. I'm having issues with sporadic loss of fuel delivery while driving, usually after at least 15 minutes of driving (sometimes much later), occurring for maybe 30-40 seconds at a time. Not stalling, not losing electrics, nothing other than being unable to give the engine gas despite consistent pedal pressure. It cuts in and out of getting gas (maybe one spurt every 5-10 seconds) like this for 30-40 seconds then is perfectly fine like nothing happened. I haven't floored it in this scenario so I don't know if that would do anything. There's no forewarning of this occurring, it just deteriorates to this condition within 3 seconds out of nowhere, lasts another 30-40, then normal. First thought was that the fuel filter was getting occasionally clogged, but after replacing it, the issue persists. Next attempt will be the fuel pump.
I've looked into the issue online and while I can't find any solved cases despite tons of threads, I do have a list of possible culprits:
-MAP sensor (no MAF on 6th gen Accords)
-Intake/vacuum leak (unlikely since it would be a consistent issue rather than isolated and sporadic)
-O2 sensor (unlikely, but not impossible)
Repairs currently attempted:
-Valve cover gaskets/seals
Any further suggestions?
Idle is consistent.
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 3 2016, 06:51 PM|
| O2 sensor is how the ECU detects A:F ratio.
Cat, IACV, TPS, Intake/Vacuum unlikely as it should be consistent, but you could check the TPS voltage easily enough. The correct values should be in the service manual.
Is the MAP a heated-element type? Anything that is temperature or flow-related is more likely than electronics.
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|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 3 2016, 07:17 PM|
I could try that. Posting this for future reference:
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Dunno anything about MAPs, but this is the most information I could find in the service manual:
|Posted by: Sensation! Feb 3 2016, 07:25 PM|
| I've given a theory to Zach since from what he's told me, the issue is temp related.
Apparently, his issue occurs ONLY after a longer period (15 minutes ish) of driving.
My guess was Cats. No, cats are not constant, they need to warm up. Its part of the reason why warm cats can produce such different smog readings warm vs cold.
so what did my crazy mind think of?
Clogged cats. basically, they're restricting his flow. Could happen from the cat warming, or they could just be clogged and restrictive at any temperature.
How does this factor into his randomly bogging when his car has been warmed up? Pre-ignition.
There's an excess amount of warm exhaust gases that's causing pre-ignition, the knock sensor is picking up on it, and retarding the engine.
the only issue of course is its not throwing a knock code.
Can confirm that zach is filling up with 87.
just a crazy and worst case theory.
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 3 2016, 08:01 PM|
| Yeah, that's possible. Could also explain the fuel trim issue since the O2 sensor would be getting way false readings.
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|Posted by: Möbius Feb 4 2016, 05:26 PM|
|So after it happens for 30-40 seconds, it goes away afterwards?|
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 4 2016, 06:55 PM|
|Good question! And if so, when does it come back (if ever)?|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 5 2016, 10:14 AM|
Yes, as I mentioned in the OP, the condition resolves itself almost immediately (within a second) and is perfectly back to normal as if nothing ever happened.
By the way, if I haven't mentioned already, the engine's idle is rock solid.
I haven't driven the car more than an hour or so at a time since this started happening, so I wouldn't know if this could occur more than once in the same drive, but it hasn't so far. Remember, though, this has occurred anywhere between 15 and 50 minutes of driving. I suppose it could come back in the same drive theoretically, but it hasn't in the 6-odd drives it's occurred in.
Also worth noting that there have been a couple drives since this started where it hasn't happened. For instance, the very first time it happened was 15 minutes into an hour-long drive up north. On the drive back (also an hour long, of course), the issue did not occur. IIRC, I made the drive again the next day, and that time too it only occurred on the northbound trip, also about 15 minutes in. The last time I made that drive, however, it occurred both northbound and southbound - northbound about 50 minutes in, and southbound about 30-40 minutes in. Could be the issue getting worse, or just dumb luck the first two round-trips.
Outside of this highway drive, it's only happened once in the city - but I've been limiting my driving out of safety and have only driven it around town once before confirming the issue, so that doesn't really count.
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 5 2016, 12:12 PM|
| Does it happen out of the blue in perfectly normal, straight, even driving? Does it seem to happen more when climbing a hill? Does it seem to happen related to wet/humid weather? Does it seem to happen after driving through a bumpy section of road?
Basically, that's way more random than I thought it was, so anything that can pin down a rhyme or reason to such randomness would help round down the possibilities.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 5 2016, 12:58 PM|
Yep, completely straight, consistent speed leading up to it, totally normal.
lel. Seriously, no, there are no inclines for that to even happen on.
It's never happened during or just after rain, no. Haven't driven it in those conditions since it's been happening, either.
Nope. Even the least smooth parts of the highway I drive on aren't that bad to begin with.
|Posted by: Tessou Feb 5 2016, 06:59 PM|
| This sounds suspiciously familiar to when I had to have a Jetta fixed after a head gasket issue. I experienced weird power loss at random times. This inconveniently decided to kick in at some really bad times, such as merging onto highways. This went on for a week before I could have it scheduled for repairs. I rode my bicycle to school, weather permitting, as I didn't want to murder the engine that I just paid out the ass to fix.
Turns out the TPS was all kinds of fucked up. I replaced the O2 and MAF at the same time just to push the reset button on all of that shit in one go. The car never acted like that ever again.
|Posted by: THE_HONDA_CG2 Feb 6 2016, 11:23 AM|
| It sounds kinda like the issue my Honda is having. I'll agree with Sensation! On this one and venture a guess to the root of the issue being the cat.
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|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 6 2016, 10:19 PM|
|TPS easier and cheaper to diagnose/replace. Start there.|
|Posted by: Spaz Feb 8 2016, 09:33 AM|
| I like the TPS for this as well. What would be ideal is if you could get a computer log of a sweep of the TPS. If it's hitting maximum or minimum voltage per spec is irrelevant when the issue happens at cruise; between those two values.
I had to help a buddy diagnose a bad one on his Evo, ended up needing to do a graphed sweep of the sensor via a computer scan tool, which turned up some really inconsistent readings that jumped all over in the 20-30% range. With the visual it was plainly obvious that the sensor was shot.
|Posted by: MetalMan777 Feb 8 2016, 09:59 AM|
| This is why I refuse to own an automatic. With a stick, you can tell if it's stumbling under load or not.
Has it been particularly hot? Do you think your fuel is boiling?
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 8 2016, 04:48 PM|
|Boiling fuel would be scary as shit, what the fuck he lives in Florida not Needles wtf.|
|Posted by: MetalMan777 Feb 12 2016, 11:39 AM|
|Fuel boils all the time. Admittedly not very frequently in the winter, or with 3 bars of fuel pressure, but my cars all have fuel coolers from the factory. I'd check fuel pressure anyway, it's an easy check. T in a gauge, have it dangle behind the hood by the wipers and Robert's your dad's brother.|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 12 2016, 12:01 PM|
No way it's boiling. Weather has been fairly cool (for Florida), ranging from 60s-70s, lowest point sometimes 50s at night.
|Posted by: Sensation! Feb 12 2016, 12:20 PM|
Actually Robert's his dads son.
It's an inside thing, just had to say it...
|Posted by: xiao Feb 12 2016, 03:21 PM|
What!? People don't call it *punch line drum-fill* anymore~!? ...god I feel old...
*looks at all the real world car tech-talk*
da fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~??? O__O??
I'm out of dis supersupreme topic pizza nuggaz! ffsshhoooooo~
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 12 2016, 10:58 PM|
|Xiao don't be that guy. Don't be that guy who buys a sports car and doesn't know how to do shit on the sports car. Come on man.|
|Posted by: MetalMan777 Feb 12 2016, 11:24 PM|
I have a sports car. I shit on it all the time.
|Posted by: xiao Feb 13 2016, 05:09 AM|
d'aww N1, Imma just kidding~ I love being techy about everything including the kitchen sink. Cars aren't that different from computers; and if when praying I get that blue bunny ice cream Subbie and/or NSX someday, I'll be trying my darnest to put an LS1 in it, so I'll need to know my OBD-2's from my Subie Rally Pearl Blues~ dun worry about little xiao brother~ I have tiger blood!
I dunno man, I want one from Japan so I can shit on the right side~
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 21 2016, 10:09 AM|
After replacing the fuel filter back when I mentioned in the OP, the issue occurred on the drive down, so initially I thought it wasn't the fix. But for several trips around town since then, it didn't occur - even after another 120-mile (roundtrip) drive up north, nothing! So, filter or otherwise, I thought all was well. But yesterday I fired it up, and not even two minutes after driving, the thing attacked with a vengeance.
Fortunately this time I was on streets instead of the highway, so I had ample opportunity to test the nature of the issue better. One thing I noticed is that the cutoff seemed not to occur when I went past 50% throttle. This could have been coincidence, but I'm not 100% (more on that later). In addition to occurring much earlier than normal, the issue persisted far longer - it must have been eight or nine minutes from start to end. Four or five minutes in, I pulled into a CVS, put it in neutral and popped the hood.
I observed the throttle cable while slowly revving just for the heck of it. Cable worked fine throughout the testing that followed. I can say for sure that when I rev anywhere up to I guess around 2.5k it holds for maybe half a second then loses power for a few seconds, then comes in strong to rev past where I had it originally (imagine holding the pedal at 20%, getting 20% for half a second, 0% for three seconds, then like 50% out of nowhere, all while holding at 20% throttle). It seems that when I hold the pedal anywhere past 50% it doesn't lose power at all, but I didn't hold it for longer than a second or two since I didn't want to rev too high just for safety's sake. Still, that's a good second longer than -50% where it loses power quite quickly.
So I've gone ahead and finally ordered a new TPS and set of O2 sensors, which will arrive Wednesday. Hopefully will be able to swap them all the same day, if not Thursday. Will report my progress then. If this info tells any of you guys something new, feel free to let me know.
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 21 2016, 11:01 AM|
|Good luck with the TPS. Here's hoping!|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 24 2016, 05:06 PM|
| One thing I forgot to mention in the update: prior to this happening, I filled the tank from empty to full on 91 (previously 87). I don't think this is necessarily related since after filling the tank, I made a full 60 mile drive south without issue. The following morning is when it came back with a vengeance. But if this says something different to any of you, feel free to chime in.
Parts are in, will hack off the old TPS' breakaways and get the new one in as well as the O2 sensors tomorrow.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Feb 25 2016, 06:50 PM|
| I'm going crazy. Just changed the TPS (couldn't do O2 just yet). The old one's voltage was a bit off, but even after putting the new one on, correctly calibrated, the issue still persists. And like last time, it happened almost immediately after starting the car, and for about 10 minutes. This time, I finally have video:
Note: just before the revs go back up, I can hear a ticking sound, perhaps electrical but I don't see any spark in the engine bay when it happens. Also the lights dim for a second in that same moment. When I say "ticking", I mean one "tick". More like a "click" maybe.
After I took that video, I put it in reverse, backed out, and started driving. It still hesitated for a handful of seconds, but then it was totally back to normal and stayed normal while I drove for, I'd say 10-15 minutes. Could just be a wild coincidence since the condition in neutral was persisting for almost 10 minutes already, which is the length it did the last time it happened, but maybe not? If not, I can't imagine why.
So as I said, the engine was totally normal when I drove for 10-15 minutes, but then it came back for another 3 or so minutes, then back to normal just as I arrived home, for another few minutes until I parked it. And here I am now.
Nomake Wan has come up with a couple suggestions: injectors, and (possibly) plugs. Plugs because there is a minor oil leak (more like sweating) in the engine bay which may be coating the plugs (I sincerely hope this isn't the case).
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Feb 25 2016, 07:32 PM|
| I told him to check the plugs for simplicity's sake. Checking plug condition is basic diagnostics and might even help. Not to mention if they're coated he probably has a rings problem and can go from there. Injectors should be self-explanatory and an auditory check is in order.
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|Posted by: Spaz Feb 26 2016, 09:53 AM|
| Plugs always make sense to check. The S2k I drove up here from AZ a few weeks back had a VC gasket leak that kept killing plugs and actually took out a coil as well, we found once it was back here.
At the very least, I still practice the lost art of plug reading, so if you post pics I can maybe get an idea of what's up, if they aren't too far gone.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Mar 6 2016, 12:36 PM|
Sorry for the late reply but here are my plugs:
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|Posted by: Spaz Mar 9 2016, 10:30 PM|
| Late response, The Division is my life now.
Anyway, #1, 2 and 4 look oily, is the valve cover gasket seeping on those cylinders? Not that it would cause it to run this poorly, but just checking. They don't smell like fuel or coolant at all, correct? Doesn't look like those but I just wanna make sure.
The other three look fine though.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Mar 9 2016, 10:35 PM|
I do actually highly suspect the valve cover gasket to be fucked, as my previously-mentioned leak seems to be in that area. So probably, yes.
I didn't check. Can do so next chance I get though.
|Posted by: Spaz Mar 9 2016, 10:38 PM|
Drive it for a bit first, just in case. Fuel and coolant will evaporate and be harder to smell if they aren't fresh.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Mar 9 2016, 10:54 PM|
I've heard it's best to pull plugs when the engine's cold. Is that not a problem, then?
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Mar 9 2016, 11:00 PM|
You won't burn your fingers, but you also won't have fresh evidence. Better to just man up, wear gloves, and pull 'em hot.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Mar 10 2016, 08:23 AM|
Not worried about burning myself, rather I've heard removing them hot can make the plug threads seize, causing damage to the cylinder head threads. Fact or fiction?
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Mar 10 2016, 10:53 AM|
| Depends I guess? If you're torquing the shit out of them on an aluminum head, then yeah, but that'll happen cold too. Just be careful and it should be fine.
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|Posted by: MetalMan777 Mar 10 2016, 02:56 PM|
|Most people who pull plugs do it after a drag pass. You run it WOT for a quarter mile, then shut it down, get towed back to the staging area/paddock, then read them. That'll tell you what's going on at the limit. If you can afford to shut it down right after having your issues then checking the plugs, that'll tell you what you want to know. Idling between experiencing the problem and shutting down will adulterate the results.|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Mar 26 2016, 12:48 PM|
|Update: ordered new valve cover gasket set to address the leak there. Once I've got that taken care of, I'll do an oil change for the heck of it, then throw on the new plugs and take another crack at the O2 sensors.|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Apr 9 2016, 01:54 PM|
| Only dumb news in this update. Since ordering the new valve cover gasket and seal kit, I still haven't even finished performing that job. First, I tore one of the spark plug tube seal sets for the front cover when I re-affixed it, so I had to order another set and wait a few days. Then I broke a bolt on the rear cover when tightening it down to the torque spec. Now I have to wait for the closes stealership to get a bolt in because even they don't have them on-hand for some reason. Should have it by Tuesday.
So yeah, dumb stuff. But other than that, it's been going fairly smoothly, though I'm pretty positive that some of the threading for the at least the front cover is damaged, as some of the bolts for that cover never stopped turning when tightening and at some point got easier to tighten. Worst-case it consequentially won't be tight enough to seal properly and I'll just start leaking again... and that will be a lot harder to fix. Only time will tell, though.
Some more parts ordered, too - got a new throttle body gasket since I've already got that taken off, and got new plug wires because why not.
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 9 2016, 03:11 PM|
| Pretty sure you're right on the threads, pretty sure you're also right on how loose that cover is gonna be. Sounds like a previous owner over torqued the shit out of em. These are aluminum--they have torque specs for a reason.
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|Posted by: kyonpalm Apr 9 2016, 03:40 PM|
I can only hope it'll be good enough to not leak again. If it isn't, I probably won't mind doing the job again with some added silicone gasket maker for good measure, but I dunno if that'd be enough. If it still isn't, I'm not even sure what my options will be.
|Posted by: Spaz Apr 13 2016, 06:47 AM|
|If they don't tighten, they'll need to be helicoiled. Which is always fun on a head. Trash bag and lots of tape to make sure the shavings don't go anywhere unwanted. The plus side is that aluminum is easy to drill and tap.|
|Posted by: kyonpalm Apr 13 2016, 09:32 AM|
Well, fortunately they did at least tighten to 6lb/ft (service manual suggests 8.7) so I'm hoping that along with the silicone I applied yesterday will be, as the adage goes, "good 'nuff". Will keep that in mind in case it isn't, though.
Aside from that, scraped off the old throttle body gasket and put the new one on. Gonna put everything back together (surely will be fun trying to remember which bolts go where, double and triple checking it's all there, etc.) and fire it up later today to see if the leak's history. Here's hoping.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Apr 15 2016, 05:22 PM|
| Good news and bad news.
Good news: pretty sure I've officially fixed the leak.
Bad news: the leak wasn't the problem.
Swapped the plugs and wires today (either the old plugs have gotten worse since I checked them or they just looked especially bad compared to the new ones) and drove it home. Got about five minutes into the drive before my throttle started cutting in and out like before, and far more erratically this time (though giving it more than 40-ish% still helps).
I shouldn't have expected any change, honestly, but it's still bringing me to my wit's end. My gut is telling me it might be directly throttle-related, but I don't know how.
|Posted by: kyonpalm May 6 2016, 10:22 AM|
I tried testing the fuel pressure but since there's no schrader valve, I consulted my service manual and discovered I can just take off the pulsation damper to fit a gauge on... I soon found out I need a special Honda©™ adapter AS WELL AS a special Honda©™ gauge. Both of these cost around $50+. I would like to believe there's a special place in hell for the engineer responsible for this decision.
So, furious over that proprietary parts bull****, I decided to check up on my distributor as someone elsewhere suggested oil in it might be the cause. Lo and behold, I go to unscrew the distributor cap and while unscrewing one of the screws, I noticed some grimey stuff. Took the cap off, and...
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Needless to say, I have a new cap and rotor on the way. Also grabbed a new o-ring in case I need it. Dunno if this is the fix, but will update when I know. Will check up on IACV in addition to fuel if this doesn't help.
Also, I cleaned my EGR valve. I'll probably still have to get a new one but whatever.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM|
Update: I still have to get a new one but whatever.
I did all that stuff I said I'd do and also threw in a new fuel pump, did nothing, cursed life and let it sit for some more months since I'm a lazy asshole and didn't really need a car at the time.
Finally got off my ass and had it looked at, guy said it was the O2 sensor. Didn't even believe him, but I had new upstream and downstream sensors already so figured what the hell, I needed to do something about the lean condition anyway. Immediately, the plague was over. Go fucking figure.
So now I have a car again. At least, until the trans goes bust. On that note, next orders of business...
-Flush and replace ATF with Honda Genuine™ (because anything else makes these trannys shit themselves apparently), should help the hard shifting a bit
-Recharge the AC (blows lukewarm, apparently didn't like being left untouched for over half a year)
-Fix the stuck horn switch in the airbag assembly (don't ask)
|Posted by: Nomake Wan Dec 28 2016, 12:21 AM|
|R134a is notoriously shit at sitting and staying cold for long periods, especially in harsh conditions. So yeah, recharge it and hopefully you're good to go. If it goes cold again, then it's time to start diagnosing shot A/C components, which is always fun.|
|Posted by: THE_HONDA_CG2 Dec 31 2016, 09:56 AM|
| Out of curiosity, how much money have you put into this car already?
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|Posted by: kyonpalm Jan 4 2017, 11:15 PM|
Sorry, didn't notice this post until now. Ballpark guessing about $300 in parts and stuff so far (including fluids), maybe less.
Refrigerant refilled, AC blows nice and cold now. Just got my ATF in the mail today, will change that out at my next convenience.
|Posted by: BOZZ Jan 6 2017, 01:53 PM|
That's a lot less than what I've put into mine (mine's an I4 '02 coupe), besides regular maintenance stuff I've had to replace 3 ball bearings and the clutch.
|Posted by: kyonpalm Jan 6 2017, 06:20 PM|
Doing all work yourself helps cut the cost down a lot. To be fair, $300 might be the low end, it might be $400ish, I just can't be fucked to pull up receipts and stuff.
|Posted by: BOZZ Jan 7 2017, 09:46 AM|
True, but I don't have the equipment or know how to replace a clutch lol... What's pretty nuts is I initially looked into getting an OEM clutch, the thing was nearly $600 just for the parts.
|Posted by: Spaz Jan 8 2017, 08:38 AM|
OEMs charge a lot for clutches, generally. Fun fact, a high number of OEM clutches are made by Sachs, which you can get from a parts store. Some Japanese OEMs use Exedy as well, I know the Evo and STi OEM clutches are both Exedy.
|Posted by: BOZZ Jan 8 2017, 10:25 AM|
Yeah, my original clutch was an Exedy, I ended up going with another brand, Luk, for my clutch since it was considerably cheaper, when I replaced the clutch about a year and a half ago.
|Posted by: THE_HONDA_CG2 Jan 8 2017, 04:16 PM|
300 is way less than I thought seeing how you were systematically replacing everything in your car.
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|Posted by: kyonpalm Jan 13 2017, 09:17 PM|
| Couple updates:
-Cleaned intake and EGR port, hopefully no problem there anymore
-Fixed the plastic shield under the front bumper that came loose and was hanging (thank god for zipties)
-Changed oil and oil filter
After researching the pros and cons (more like myths) of flushing ATF on high mileage cars, I'll be doing it soon, the DIY return hose method. Debating whether or not to get two new filters, one to go in after the "flush", the other to put in after a bit of driving with the first new one in case the new ATF flows a lot of chunks of gunk into it. I don't know if the ATF was ever changed (probably not) and it does have 78k on the odo.