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> Limited Slip Differential discussion
GokuFc
Posted: Feb 17 2011, 06:41 AM


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Torsen
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvocsePIg4M
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Le6Mvqez8

why do you think the torsen isn't qualified for drift?
since i have never use one i want to know why!
but also i want to hear it from someone who has use one!
Cubits
Posted: Feb 17 2011, 07:01 AM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ 7 hours, 47 minutes ago)
And again, torsen's aren't the best idea for drifting. Not only are they a bit useless if the inside wheel lifts when used on a bouncy-bouncy drift car, but because they are entirely gear-driven they do have the potential to explode when met with a large amount of differential torque (as you tend to find on wide-tyred, 600hp turbocharged cars). Quaife had a bit of a problem with this in the past.

Torsen diffs only work if both wheels are on the ground (or if they're being braked), as gear-driven differentials are torque multipliers (and you can't get anything from 0!).

If the rear inside skips a little due to the very stiff suspension of a drift car it will momentarily lose all drive and rapidly reaquire it. This shock loading, from a very torque-rich engine, can potentially obliterate a torsen diff (where any other LSD would just slip). Even if it doesn't kill the differential, it can upset the car at times when a clutch-diffed car would just be locked up and predictable.
sideways
Posted: Feb 17 2011, 10:43 PM


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You know, ive -never- actually seen a torsen blow in the sense your previous post would lead one to imagine. Another nifty thing to think about for torsens is you CAN preload them- So in the event you DO have the inside wheel start spinning youll still transfer power to the outside wheel.

That said I do agree, torsen is NOT nearly as good for drifting as a good ol clutch lsd is.
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Feb 22 2011, 06:43 PM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ Feb 15 2011, 10:43 PM)
Have you drifted much with a torsen? While it is very possible, most/all people tend to prefer either a clutch-pack style diff or a viscous unit, as they are very easy to shim for preload, and still have full transmission with a wheel in the air. I haven't heard of any one using a torsen diff to drift.

I don't really drift (I've tried it a few times), but from my understanding, viscous LSDs are definitely not the best for drifting. I remember on one of the DVDs with Keichi Tsuchiya (maybe Drift Bible), it showed two very similar cars (probably AE86s) drifting around the same circle repeatedly, though one had a viscous LSD and the other had a mechanical LSD, and the mechanical LSD was definitely drifting better.

QUOTE (cmspaz)
Not sure on the Subaru, but the Evo uses a viscous center diff, helical front, and clutch-type rear.

Actually, only the non-ACD Evos (2003-2004) had a viscous center LSD, while the Evos with ACD (basically 2005+) have hydraulic multi-plate clutches, which I'm pretty sure doesn't utilize viscous fluids.... though if I'm wrong, let me know.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 22 2011, 06:56 PM


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QUOTE (DeeezNuuuts83 @ 12 minutes, 20 seconds ago)
QUOTE (cmspaz)
Not sure on the Subaru, but the Evo uses a viscous center diff, helical front, and clutch-type rear.

Actually, only the non-ACD Evos (2003-2004) had a viscous center LSD, while the Evos with ACD (basically 2005+) have hydraulic multi-plate clutches, which I'm pretty sure doesn't utilize viscous fluids.... though if I'm wrong, let me know.

You are indeed correct sir.
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Feb 22 2011, 07:07 PM


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^ Also, only the 2004 Evo RS and 2005+ Evos have the front helical LSD. The 2003-2004 non-RS Evos all had open front differentials.
Cubits
Posted: Feb 22 2011, 08:12 PM


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QUOTE (DeeezNuuuts83 @ 1 hour, 28 minutes ago)
I don't really drift (I've tried it a few times), but from my understanding, viscous LSDs are definitely not the best for drifting. I remember on one of the DVDs with Keichi Tsuchiya (maybe Drift Bible), it showed two very similar cars (probably AE86s) drifting around the same circle repeatedly, though one had a viscous LSD and the other had a mechanical LSD, and the mechanical LSD was definitely drifting better.

Yes, but if you SHIM a viscous diff you effectively create a "safe to use" welded diff, which makes them perfect for budget drifting. I've done this countless times for my friend's cars, and they've used them competitively.

The part of drift bible was an mx-5 driving in big circles where the ae86 was just cutting doughnuts. It was a very generalised take on viscous diffs.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 22 2011, 09:25 PM


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QUOTE (DeeezNuuuts83 @ 2 hours, 18 minutes ago)
^ Also, only the 2004 Evo RS and 2005+ Evos have the front helical LSD. The 2003-2004 non-RS Evos all had open front differentials.

Also correct. I was simply generalizing for simplicity's sake. The thought of picking up and installing a Wavetrac in the front end has often crossed my mind.
Jhaqastar
Posted: Apr 19 2013, 10:58 AM


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+1 on the Welded ^.^

For funness on the cheap, nothing beats welded! The thing is as predictable as the sun is rising in the morning since you're always sure that both wheels are locked tongue.gif.

I heard from a drifter buddy that the welded is really nice to practice on and drive solo in. But in tandems and competition, there's really an edge when you use a tuned clutch type.

And welded is also good for those "urges only" drifting. I'm a time attack kind of guy so a welded is really crap with all its turn in understeer inducing characteristics for me. So when I feel the urge to go a little sideways once in a while, I slap my welded on, put some regular diff oil you get from gas stations, the get some angle for the next week or two :3. When the itch is gone, put the old diff back :3.

But yeah... For a toy car, welded is fine... But as a sort of daily/competition car, the welded will be very annoying!
Tygur
Posted: Apr 20 2013, 04:33 PM


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Agreed. I've been debating on getting my diff welded, as I don't have a grand to throw down on a LSD. But the understeer properties have turned me off of the idea. That and I don't drift. Does kinda suck going round a hairpin, nailing the gas, and having the inside tire go nuts but nothing really happen.
Banken
Posted: Apr 20 2013, 05:10 PM


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If you're not drifting you're better off with a shimmed stock LSD than a welded diff...

If you're going to track or autocross or race seriously an LSD is an absolute must.

This post has been edited by Banken on Apr 20 2013, 05:10 PM
Tygur
Posted: Apr 20 2013, 07:02 PM


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I have an open diff... can't afford an LSD so its open or welded... No plans for anything competitive, just a toy for spirited driving in the hills.

This post has been edited by Tygur on Apr 20 2013, 07:03 PM
sideways
Posted: Apr 20 2013, 08:34 PM


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QUOTE (Tygur @ 1 hour, 32 minutes ago)
I have an open diff... can't afford an LSD so its open or welded... No plans for anything competitive, just a toy for spirited driving in the hills.

As far as racing goes if your spinning a tire, welded is going to be faster than an open dif. Its just a matter of learning how to use the thing without slipping and sliding everywhere

Have you considered using an obx helical lsd? They can be picked up for a <300 bucks left and right. I picked mine up for my Z for just over 200 bucks shipped brand new. If youre interested or curious about them, just lemme know id be glad to share what I know about them. Imo one of the best bang for the buck diffs you can purchase.
Tygur
Posted: Apr 20 2013, 10:37 PM


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Had no idea they had an option for that cheap! All I've seen are 600-1200$. Still don't have the money right now but in the future I'd definitely be interested!
Spaz
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 01:20 PM


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It's OBX, the redheaded step child of ebay.

They tend to be stupid cheap, but most of the products I've seen personally haven't had any serious quality flaws. At $300 and with sideways' blessing, I'd say you're game on. smile.gif
Tygur
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 01:39 PM


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Haha, OBX. My short shifter is OBX, but with a little fabrication, its very nice. I dunno about something as serious as a differential, though, but if you guys say its decent, I'll check into it. smile.gif
Banken
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 03:45 PM


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Generally speaking, when a product that isn't clothing or perfume costs 1/4th what the original it's knocking off costs, there's something wrong with it.

Or it is built by children in Indonesia. Or it is made out of recycled pots. Helical diffs require extremely strong construction because of the way they work.

If you can't afford to invest $1000 in one of the most important handling/power (yes, both handling and power) upgrades, perhaps you shouldn't be upgrading your car to begin with.

Otherwise you're better off buying a used stock Z31 LSD since I believe it's a clutch pack (the best kind of racing diff, although it requires more maintenance), rebuilding it, and then shimming it for more initial torque.

A locked diff is ok for drag racing and drifting, but on the street it will be a pain.
Tygur
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 05:50 PM


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Its only really upgraded because it was cheaper than the OE replacement parts. And yeah thats why I don't have it welded already. An NA Z can't really get enough power to be dangerous with an open diff. Like I said, its just a toy beater for the hills around here. I only paid 500$ for it. Its just annoying to be coming out of a turn and not be able to accelerate because the inside wheel spins. I don't need to be competitive, and I don't like being told that because I'm poor, I shouldn't tinker with my car.
s12drifter
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 07:18 PM


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currently have a VLSD in my Z31 dont go vlsd it's... bi-polar. you can shim them but that only last so long.

looking to go S15 helical.
Banken
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 10:33 PM


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You shouldn't modify your car if you're poor. You should only be maintaining it. If you happen to choose to repair it with upgraded parts, well...

But you should never buy bottom-basement upgrade parts, especially ones that cost less than the stock parts. Because doing it cheap ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS costs more than doing it right.

Never, ever buy a viscous LSD. You might as well not have an LSD at all.
Tygur
Posted: Apr 21 2013, 11:14 PM


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Thats a very childish thing to say.

This post has been edited by Tygur on Apr 21 2013, 11:43 PM
Banken
Posted: Apr 22 2013, 12:12 AM


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QUOTE (Tygur @ 57 minutes, 57 seconds ago)
Thats a very childish thing to say.

Actually, it's pretty damn good advice. Playing with cars is for people who have steady jobs. If you don't have a steady job you would be better off saving your money.
Tygur
Posted: Apr 22 2013, 12:26 AM


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Who said I didn't have a steady job? We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I have a different philosophy on life and lots of experience that says otherwise. Besides, this topic is about LSDs, not berating people. Lets get back on topic.
tappedby_sway
Posted: Jul 26 2016, 04:11 PM


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QUOTE (sileighty_00 @ Jan 14 2004, 09:16 PM)
Just wondering what kind of LSD is used most for drifting.  What are the advatages/disadvantages of each kind?

Without getting too technical - most grassroots drifters drift on welded diffs because they're cheap and easy to come by. Your tires are ALWAYS locked and it gets the job done. Disadvantage, if they are shit welds, they'll probably break at some point and you'll be throwing one-wheel wonder drifts. Daily driving a welded isn't exactly ideal, considering every slow turn you make will have your rear end turning heads (not in a good way). Also, trying to drive that shit in the rain is sketch as fuck...for obvious reasons...you'll drift errrraaaawhuuurrrr, but it's probably not your intention. General consensus for welded diffs... unless you're just tracking your car, I wouldn't recommend driving a daily drift car on a welded.

If you can throw down a thousand bucks or so, I'd recommend getting a 2-way diff. It works like a welded (but obviously it's not welded) and you won't die driving that bitch in the rain or making awful sounds when trying to make slow turns (skurt skurt skurt skurt)

I personally drive on a 1.5 way differential (which is better for autocross, but as a DD and track application, I've not had any problems and have been on the same rear end for 4 years...daily driving, traveling to and from drift events, drifting etc). The 1.5 locks under acceleration and only half the time under decel.


There's also VLSD - the diff that runs off viscous fluid and it's evil. Just...don't even.

Like I said, without going into crazy detail, that's really it with diffs.

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