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> Forget FF, RWD vs. AWD!!!!, give your not-stupid opinion here...
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:49 AM


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Even on the kick ass manifolds the rally cars have they need to be changed like every 500 miles or so isnt it?

Granted, most are on a "Switch" so you can turn it on or off.. but man.

I will agree and admit there is an advantage to a als over a bov, but its slight. the damage just isnt worth the difference really though.

For those who dont know, like rally cars whore under regulations to what they can and can not do. Theres literaly, think of an "intake tube" on the turbo. This intake tube is actually smaller then what the turbo is capable of, restricting how much air it can bring in and how fast. Even with a bov this greatly affects a turbos tiem to spool up. its because of these LFB was used in rally (trying to stop the car while kepeing the engine up to keep the turbo going) but this obviously isnt a very good way to stop.

So the als was created to help with that, and does a damn good job at it.
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:52 AM


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yes it does, you can't LFB everywhere know what I mean? well you could but...you know what I mean grin2.gif
1slowsupra
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 01:10 PM


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QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Oct 23 2004, 10:29 AM)
also the anti-lag system depends on just that, how much lag you have, sure its a waste for most people but if your a serious racer then it might be a good investment.

Do you know how much a real ALS system cost? It is about $50k. Nobody has that on their regular car. They do have cheap ass systems, I wouldnt even trust those..you can blow up easy if you set it up wrong.

ALS are high tech. It cost so much cuz it is the entire system, turbo(highly modified that can handle high amounts of compressor surge), exhaust manifold(extremely tuff that can handle explosions like a engine), and a computer that controls everything and it still has to work with the cars stand alone, now that is $$$ for tuning..and it is changed and tuned on almost every track. WRC arent just striped down STi's or EVO's...they are high tech expensive ass machines.

In basic terms, ALS makes a turbo car operate like a NA. Step on the gas = instant boost, let off the gas = car still in boost.

LFB is the alternative. Poor mans anti-lag system.

This post has been edited by 1slowsupra on Oct 23 2004, 01:13 PM
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 01:43 PM


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Ive always said you should never compare your car to the car youll find in things like wrc rally, jgtc.. they may -look- the same.. but thats about all they got in common
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 03:02 PM


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QUOTE (1slowsupra @ Oct 23 2004, 01:10 PM)
QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Oct 23 2004, 10:29 AM)
also the anti-lag system depends on just that, how much lag you have, sure its a waste for most people but if your a serious racer then it might be a good investment.

Do you know how much a real ALS system cost? It is about $50k. Nobody has that on their regular car. They do have cheap ass systems, I wouldnt even trust those..you can blow up easy if you set it up wrong.

ALS are high tech. It cost so much cuz it is the entire system, turbo(highly modified that can handle high amounts of compressor surge), exhaust manifold(extremely tuff that can handle explosions like a engine), and a computer that controls everything and it still has to work with the cars stand alone, now that is $$$ for tuning..and it is changed and tuned on almost every track. WRC arent just striped down STi's or EVO's...they are high tech expensive ass machines.

In basic terms, ALS makes a turbo car operate like a NA. Step on the gas = instant boost, let off the gas = car still in boost.

LFB is the alternative. Poor mans anti-lag system.

$50000??? WTF?!?!Have you ever watched a non-wrc event like SCCA pro rally... and seen how many cars are running ALS? I think you should go over to www.specialstage.com (where all the rally drivers post on forums), and ask if a good-quality ALS system costs 50 grand (including everything necessary to make the ALS work and be safe)... lol you will get laughed at... damn... you can buy a whole group A lancer evo IV with ALS, 10 sets of spare rally tires, etc for 50 grand (usually even less..) >.> Actually... heres one selling for $25000 USD... >.> I have vids of this car actually... heres one right here (look at 2:05 in)... http://www.ncrally.com/media/movies/04RNY/RallyNYSS9.wmv

Maybe the ALS system on a WRC car is $50k... but for your average turbo AWD rally car, try like around $2000 (and not for a pile-of-crap system, im talking a top-of-the-line aftermarket anti lag system)... here's and example of an ALS system that a lot of the guys in SCCA Pro Rally use... its the Autronic SM2, and its an ECU with a whole bunch of other stuff in it required to tune the engine, including anti lag http://www.autronic.com/technical_data_files/antilag.pdf. A lot of people use the SMC as well. Here's the Autronic homepage so you can get the specs on the SMC and SM2... http://www.autronic.com/. SRTC (subaru rally team canada) uses a LINK system on their STi rally car, its even cheaper than the autronic... I have a pic i took of the inside of their car (Patrick Richard's car) attached to the bottom of the post...

and a place in the USA where you can buy the SM2 and SMC from... http://www.tatomotorsports.com/autronics_price.asp

All anti lag is (in a simple description), is that engine timing retards when the accelerator is let off, and unburnt fuel is let into the exhaust system, and the fuel ignites when it hits the hot exhaust gases, producing an explosion which creates pressure to spool the turbo. This makes the turbo keep boost pressue when the acceletator is let off. When you get back on the gas, you will have instant response, since turbo lag is eliminated. If you wanna throw in the cost for a full-racing exhaust (which is pretty much needed for ALS since you will destroy an exhaust with a cat in it), then toss that in too, as well as a few extra parts for anti-lag (like a throttle opening device if you need it). But its not $50000 for a really good ALS system... lol. Also... there are multiple ways to achieve anti lag, they are not all the same...

If you want to get into a discussion about anti-lag... jump in this topic http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID9/90.html , cause everyone chatting in that topic is a professional rally driver with ALS on their car.

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 23 2004, 09:44 PM

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AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 06:52 PM


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Whoa there, never did I say any of those cars were even close to WRC class. Please don't put words in my mouth, I never do such a thing for others, so it would be greatly appreciated if you wouldn't. Also thanks AWDdrifter for saving me the time of having to post such things.
Solid Snake
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 07:36 PM


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QUOTE (Nick @ Oct 23 2004, 01:31 AM)
Lets also not forget about mid-engine RWD and rear engine rwd(ie porsche's).

Throttle-lift oversteer is cool. cool.gif
AJS13
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:07 PM


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QUOTE (Solid Snake @ Oct 24 2004, 04:36 PM)
Throttle-lift oversteer is cool. cool.gif

I can do that in my Mini.
MidnightViper88
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:30 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 23 2004, 01:43 PM)
Ive always said you should never compare your car to the car youll find in things like wrc rally, jgtc.. they may -look- the same.. but thats about all they got in common

Chassis is still the same...The 300-hp Focus RS WRC uses 54 stock Ford parts from the regular street 210-hp Focus RS, including the powertrain (Same 2.0L Zetec I4 and Garrett turbo)...Yes, body work is nowhere near what you see on a street example, but it's not a mechanical alteration, and is done mearly for aerodynamics...Engines are also tilted back for balance, and other things like internal engines modifications, strengthened chassis, and larger intercooler/radiator are done for endurance reasons...

After all that, it's still dramatically different from a street car...But, uhh...

I don't know about anything else, but at least with WRC and the Focus, you can buy most of the parts used on the Focus WRC car from the Ford Racing Performance Parts catalog...

You still have to build your car to those specs, but I don't see any other companies supply OEM parts from their race cars like that... tongue.gif

*mindless, tired ramble*
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 11:44 PM


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Street car is to wrc car as paper is to art master piece... its the same thing, buut with a few added things wink2.gif
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 11:45 PM


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QUOTE (MidnightViper88 @ Oct 23 2004, 10:30 PM)
QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 23 2004, 01:43 PM)
Ive always said you should never compare your car to the car youll find in things like wrc rally, jgtc.. they may -look- the same.. but thats about all they got in common

Chassis is still the same...The 300-hp Focus RS WRC uses 54 stock Ford parts from the regular street 210-hp Focus RS, including the powertrain (Same 2.0L Zetec I4 and Garrett turbo)...Yes, body work is nowhere near what you see on a street example, but it's not a mechanical alteration, and is done mearly for aerodynamics...Engines are also tilted back for balance, and other things like internal engines modifications, strengthened chassis, and larger intercooler/radiator are done for endurance reasons...

After all that, it's still dramatically different from a street car...But, uhh...

I don't know about anything else, but at least with WRC and the Focus, you can buy most of the parts used on the Focus WRC car from the Ford Racing Performance Parts catalog...

You still have to build your car to those specs, but I don't see any other companies supply OEM parts from their race cars like that... tongue.gif

*mindless, tired ramble*

Even on the Impreza WRC group A8... the chassis is the same as the street car, the engine is the EJ20 (except its heavily modified, obviously), shares a lot of common parts with the stock STi (lights are the same! lol)... all thats really different is a lot of the major compnents are a lot more sophisticated (suspension, transmission, AWD system (although the basic AWD system isn't modified that much, but the diffs are), and everything is lot more expensive smile.gif

But as for Group N cars... they are like 90% stock... really close to street cars smile.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 23 2004, 11:48 PM
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1slowsupra
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 01:03 AM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 23 2004, 03:02 PM)


Maybe the ALS system on a WRC car is $50k... but for your average turbo AWD rally car, try like around $2000 (and not for a pile-of-crap system, im talking a top-of-the-line aftermarket anti lag system)... here's and example of an ALS system that a lot of the guys in SCCA Pro Rally use... its the Autronic SM2, and its an ECU with a whole bunch of other stuff in it required to tune the engine, including anti lag http://www.autronic.com/technical_data_files/antilag.pdf. A lot of people use the SMC as well. Here's the Autronic homepage so you can get the specs on the SMC and SM2... http://www.autronic.com/. SRTC (subaru rally team canada) uses a LINK system on their STi rally car, its even cheaper than the autronic... I have a pic i took of the inside of their car (Patrick Richard's car) attached to the bottom of the post...

and a place in the USA where you can buy the SM2 and SMC from... http://www.tatomotorsports.com/autronics_price.asp

All anti lag is (in a simple description), is that engine timing retards when the accelerator is let off, and unburnt fuel is let into the exhaust system, and the fuel ignites when it hits the hot exhaust gases, producing an explosion which creates pressure to spool the turbo. This makes the turbo keep boost pressue when the acceletator is let off. When you get back on the gas, you will have instant response, since turbo lag is eliminated. If you wanna throw in the cost for a full-racing exhaust (which is pretty much needed for ALS since you will destroy an exhaust with a cat in it), then toss that in too, as well as a few extra parts for anti-lag (like a throttle opening device if you need it). But its not $50000 for a really good ALS system... lol. Also... there are multiple ways to achieve anti lag, they are not all the same...

If you want to get into a discussion about anti-lag... jump in this topic http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID9/90.html , cause everyone chatting in that topic is a professional rally driver with ALS on their car.

Dude look at the product you just posted. The Autronic SMC or SM2 is JUST THE COMPUTER! LMAO. Yah $2k for a computer that adjusts your timing...that sounds about right. What about the turbo, what about the turbo manifold? What about the tuning? Anyone can install a SM2 on any turbo car, it will drive but guess how long they will last. A STOCK TURBO W/ STOCK TURBO MANIFOLD WOULDNT LAST A BLOCK.
Most cars that are this modified have stand alones, which needs extensive tuning...throw in a ALS, that is even more tuning. In my previous post, I am talking about the whole shabang, not just one piece of the anti-lag system...you have to have all the parts to make it work and run reliably you know.

$50k for a USED Rally car...yah that sounds about right, cuz I know damn well I wouldnt pay $100k for a used one thats beat to hell. Rally cars I am emphasizing in my post are brand new with new parts retail cost..and you got to be a idiot to pay retail on anything, but hey those prices are reality.

That forum, Ive never heard of any of those guys, so i guess they arent so professional. Sounds like a ametur class if you ask me, but hey they still have some serious shit no doubt about that...and that still leads me to believe they are running second rate shit compared to WRC cars.
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 02:34 AM


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QUOTE (1slowsupra @ Oct 24 2004, 01:03 AM)
Dude look at the product you just posted. The Autronic SMC or SM2 is JUST THE COMPUTER! LMAO. Yah $2k for a computer that adjusts your timing...that sounds about right. What about the turbo, what about the turbo manifold? What about the tuning? Anyone can install a SM2 on any turbo car, it will drive but guess how long they will last. A STOCK TURBO W/ STOCK TURBO MANIFOLD WOULDNT LAST A BLOCK. 
Most cars that are this modified have stand alones, which needs extensive tuning...throw in a ALS, that is even more tuning. In my previous post, I am talking about the whole shabang, not just one piece of the anti-lag system...you have to have all the parts to make it work and run reliably you know.

$50k for a USED Rally car...yah that sounds about right, cuz I know damn well I wouldnt pay $100k for a used one thats beat to hell. Rally cars I am emphasizing in my post are brand new with new parts retail cost..and you got to be a idiot to pay retail on anything, but hey those prices are reality.

That forum, Ive never heard of any of those guys, so i guess they arent so professional. Sounds like a ametur class if you ask me, but hey they still have some serious shit no doubt about that...and that still leads me to believe they are running second rate shit compared to WRC cars.

Maybe you should actually read my post... i already pointed out everything you just said laugh.gif laugh.gif I already said that you could add in the cost of the exhaust manifold, turbo etc and it wouldn't come anywhere NEAR $50000... also... read up what the SM2 and SMC actually does...

Everyone isn't millionaires and can't afford some half-million dollar budget to build a rally car.. becuase if you think just the ALS system (including the parts to make it safe) costs $50000... you're looking at that price range... and I can garuntee all those guys don't have half a mil around to make their rally cars. Try around $50k-$60k to build an EVO to open class spec... including the car...

and... just because YOU haven't heard of them... that makes them not professional??? LOL!!! the guy with the Screenname "patr" raced in the WRC group N championship last year in a subaru factory team car... and he won both the Canadian and USA rally championships this year as well... and he won the USA rally championship in an under-powered group N WRX (non-STi), facing many open class evo's and the such... i think he at least qualifies in the "professional" category laugh.gif

and also "Running second-rate shit compared to WRC cars"... lol... of course Cpt. Obvious... I don't think they are all made of money like multi-billion dollar corporations laugh.gif Do you expect every car to have a semi-automatic hydraullic gearbox as well? Rally cars aren't defined as just FIA group A8 rally cars, we are talking about non-works cars here as AETRAN86 already pointed out... not "how much do ALS systems cost on a WRC group A8 works car" laugh.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 24 2004, 03:27 AM
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flohtingPoint
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 02:42 AM


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Sweet! An internet fight! Havent seen one of those in... 5 minutes.
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 06:25 AM


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1st off, floating whats with the "I love granny porn"??? blink.gif

anyways so if a ALS isnt WRC spec its 2nd hand? thats like saying any part that anyone puts on theyre car is 2nd hand if its not race or pro spec. alot of companies make parts that aren't race spec but theyre still damn good parts. From the sounds of it AWDdrifter might even be a rally driver himself, he's got alot of insight, and everyone should be open minded about information anyone has to share that may teack any of us some new things, I don't know everything or pretend to, but I'm always interested in learning somthing new, don't you guys agree?
flohtingPoint
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 11:50 AM


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QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Oct 24 2004, 06:25 AM)
1st off, floating whats with the "I love granny porn"??? blink.gif

anyways so if a ALS isnt WRC spec its 2nd hand? thats like saying any part that anyone puts on theyre car is 2nd hand if its not race or pro spec. alot of companies make parts that aren't race spec but theyre still damn good parts. From the sounds of it AWDdrifter might even be a rally driver himself, he's got alot of insight, and everyone should be open minded about information anyone has to share that may teack any of us some new things, I don't know everything or pretend to, but I'm always interested in learning somthing new, don't you guys agree?

Ah, about that, I pm'ed Indy, and told him that I didnt really care what title he put, just something other than Pm Indy for custom blah blah blah. So he threw this on there. Its better than PM Indy for blah blah blah, so I dont really care.
sideways
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 11:59 AM


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Ahh so its indy who loves the granny porn, and hes speaking it through flohting... it all makes sense now..
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Posted: Oct 24 2004, 12:04 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 24 2004, 11:59 AM)
Ahh so its indy who loves the granny porn, and hes speaking it through flohting... it all makes sense now..

Nah, we both like it. We trade videos. Come, join the granny porn revolution!
But she looked 18 of..
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 01:17 PM


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QUOTE (flohtingPoint @ Oct 24 2004, 01:50 PM)
. Its better than PM Indy for blah blah blah, so I dont really care.

sad.gif
1slowsupra
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 02:23 PM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 24 2004, 02:34 AM)

Maybe you should actually read my post... i already pointed out everything you just said  laugh.gif  laugh.gif I already said that you could add in the cost of the exhaust manifold, turbo etc and it wouldn't come anywhere NEAR $50000... also... read up what the SM2 and SMC actually does...


Taken from Autronic website:
QUOTE
The Autronic SM2 includes harness, air and water temp sensor, internal map sensor, fuel pump relay, PC data cable, calibration and data logging software, 100 page manual.

Auuuugggghhh...heellllloooo mmmccccffllllllllyyyy... THE SM2 OR SMC DO NOT INCLUDE THE TURBO OR MANIFOLD, IT IS JUST A COMPUTER!! HELLO!!! DAMN, i CAN GET A MOTEC FOR ABOUT THAT MUCH...ITS NOT THE PRICE OF THE PART THAT MAKES IT EXPENSIVE. You can hav a SM2 and say "yah I have a ALS in my car" doesnt mean you can use it to its full advantage.



Alright, Ill admit...$50k for a ALS is for a WRC car. Ive never seen a ALS on a regular car...I never looked into a ALS in amateur class. Ok than, technology im sure has caught up with itself and is now affordable. Even if a ALS can cost as low as $10k, still not worth it if you do not do rally driving. You can not have that shit on the street, cop bust your ass in a hot second. SO EVERYONE HEAR THIS, ALS IS AFFORDABLE, GO OUT AND BUY IT!!

Ok so one guy on that forum happend to have been a pro. So what. Thats just one guy.

When I mentioned 2nd rate(I DID NOT SAY SECOND HAND), I did not mean junk. I meant alternative to what the pros use. Hell I have a gang of shit on my car that isnt race spec and works great for what I want...and yea, to me it is second rate but is the best on the street.

This post has been edited by 1slowsupra on Oct 24 2004, 02:37 PM
flohtingPoint
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 02:52 PM


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/em grabs popcorn and waits for this to come to fisticuffs.
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 02:52 PM


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Sorry then, I took it out of context. Like you meant it was a bad thing to have somthing "2nd rate" on your car.
1slowsupra
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 03:07 PM


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QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Oct 24 2004, 02:52 PM)
Sorry then, I took it out of context. Like you meant it was a bad thing to have somthing "2nd rate" on your car.

Naw, nothing wrong with 2nd rate. Anyone or tuner will tell you the best ECM for a project race car is a stand alone...but most people dont need that high of a demand. Having piggy back systems working with the stock computer(or moded ECM) is what I would call 2nd rate stuff, and that can work even better on lightly to mildly tuned street cars..but not for full blown race cars.
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 03:31 PM


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QUOTE (1slowsupra @ Oct 24 2004, 02:23 PM)
Auuuugggghhh...heellllloooo mmmccccffllllllllyyyy... THE SM2 OR SMC DO NOT INCLUDE THE TURBO OR MANIFOLD, IT IS JUST A COMPUTER!! HELLO!!! DAMN, i CAN GET A MOTEC FOR ABOUT THAT MUCH...ITS NOT THE PRICE OF THE PART THAT MAKES IT EXPENSIVE. You can hav a SM2 and say "yah I have a ALS in my car" doesnt mean you can use it to its full advantage.



Alright, Ill admit...$50k for a ALS is for a WRC car. Ive never seen a ALS on a regular car...I never looked into a ALS in amateur class. Ok than, technology im sure has caught up with itself and is now affordable. Even if a ALS can cost as low as $10k, still not worth it if you do not do rally driving. You can not have that shit on the street, cop bust your ass in a hot second.  SO EVERYONE HEAR THIS, ALS IS AFFORDABLE, GO OUT AND BUY IT!!

Ok so one guy on that forum happend to have been a pro. So what. Thats just one guy.

When I mentioned 2nd rate(I DID NOT SAY SECOND HAND), I did not mean junk. I meant alternative to what the pros use. Hell I have a gang of shit on my car that isnt race spec and works great for what I want...and yea, to me it is second rate but is the best on the street.

I only posted the SMC and SM2 to provide examples of ECU's that can control anti-lag... i didn't mean its the only thing needed for anti-lag to work safely, and I know its just a computer...

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post about anti lag where I said:
QUOTE
If you wanna throw in the cost for a full-racing exhaust (which is pretty much needed for ALS since you will destroy an exhaust with a cat in it), then toss that in too, as well as a few extra parts for anti-lag (like a throttle opening device if you need it). But its not $50000 for a really good ALS system... lol. Also... there are multiple ways to achieve anti lag, they are not all the same...


And I agree with you, ALS should not be run on the street... only rally cars... because the benefits don't overweigh the risks of running ALS on a street car smile.gif

Also... if you want an example of ALS being run on a street car... here is one... http://www.22b.com/video/als.mpg (I would highly advise NOT to follow in this guy's footsteps though happy.gif )

I'm glad we've come to an agreement smile.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 24 2004, 03:33 PM
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chaos
  Posted: Oct 24 2004, 04:26 PM


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Man I miss out on a lot. I just don't go on often. Catch up time.

1. The pun was not aimed negatively at rally drivers, I come from Europe, although I love autocross most, I can appreciate a rally driver. Speaking of european rally cars, HOLY CRAP!!! The new Focus RS is so awesome. AWD, 280 hp, tuned chassis, it's amazing.

2. So far, good job, the "debate" is intense. As I predicted, this is in part thx to sidewaysgts and his ae86 loving ways.

3. A little off topic: I feel so cheated. I saw pictures of the new Skyline that we are getting (2007). It's a frickin modyfied g35. I could have done that myself, like WTF?! Hey, guys, let's modify a s15 and call it the new 300zx reborn! My life is in ruins, hopes and dreams of awd whoopass gone, all gone............ crying2.gif

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