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> Forget FF, RWD vs. AWD!!!!, give your not-stupid opinion here...
chaos
  Posted: Oct 22 2004, 03:30 PM


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As my name implies I love chaos, especially when I cause it. I remember the FF arguments and I declare FR WINNER laugh.gif !!! Don't argue. Now the next challenger...............wait for it..................AWD!!! (if u didn't c the topic..somehow)
Now we must work ppl and hopefully I will ensinuate a very long argument.

Here's my piece. Awd have the acceleration, stability and are difficult to spin out. On the other hand they can't take a turn as well as an FR because of the afore-
mentioned stability and therefore traction. However they can put a lot of power down in the coners (more than FF) and can enter a drift at much higher speeds. Plus, they can use their redicilious power and through sheer force accelerate out of a corner quickly. Look at the evo, it's a rallyist's wet dream, fast in, fast out, get it?
This ofcourse is not the best thing to do except on really sharp turns as it shreads the tires. Also, some AWD are prone to understeer and can't oversteer too well. In some cases this kill's time (g circle) and sometimes proves invincible (salomn).

Well I'm done. Hopefully sidewaysgts or somebody who is good at arguing will expand this to a huge 1 month 20 page flame war....er....I mean "debate".

ChAoS out fear2.gif
sideways
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 05:45 PM


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Id still go FR.. awd have acceleration goign for them but thats it, and thats just not my style.

Theyre heavy because of their drive train, and have more components in it so they also lose more power
through its. More weight = crappy turn in, also they understeer like a b*tch. Since their front tires have power they often spin easily while cornering, thus less traction, thus the understeer.

Theyre fast as hell from corner to corner, and slow in them.

Really comes down to personal preference and what your doing...

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 22 2004, 05:45 PM
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:31 PM


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I personally *HEART* AWD, and I wouldn't trade it for any other drivetrain. But you are right, AWD does have its downfalls... mainly in the understeer department (sure the power is a bit down to the wheels too... but then again the power is split between 4 wheels so it ain't all bad). I only wish that all cars had an AWD system like the GT-R, where in normal conditions the power is 0:100 (RWD), but when the rear tires slip the power gets shifted partially to the front wheels (AWD), and a Controller to control this (like DCCD). If you set up your AWD car's suspension for slight oversteer instead of slight understeer like most Subaru's have for safety concerns (all it takes is a larger rear swaybar usually), and you will be smokin'. The EVO is already set up for a more oversteer-like cornering at the limit (but it still SLIGHTLY understeers at the limit), which is why it always beats the STi in a cornering comparison stock vs stock... but this isn't the case with a tiny modification. smile.gif

I like AWD becuase it can do everything a RWD car can do (except long, smoking burnouts). All you have to do is shift the weight on the car before cornering, becuase of the natural understeer characteristics of AWD (but hey, its not as bad as FF, lol). I like driving in the snow a lot as well, and I would never dream taking a RWD car in the snow when AWD is available. Also.. through the mountains... nothing will beat a well-tuned AWD car (I would like to see ANY RWD car beat a WRC car with the same hp, etc on a tarmac rally. Actually any hp is fine, it doesn't make a difference...)

So i see it like this... AWD = more adaptable, good in all driving conditions (better than RWD on rain, gravel, snow), RWD = good on tarmac, but not adaptable like AWD. RWD and AWD are both good... I guess its just where your tastes lie. I think we need a link to the RWD vs AWD touge battle video from best mororing in this topic smile.gif (this link is dead crying2.gif ) Also... if you watch best motoring April 1999... Nakaya tests the 1999 WRC EVO VI on tsukuba, and it almost beats the record lap time!! (and its only got 300hp!!)... it also recorded the fastest cornering speed out of any car to be tested on tsukuba.

So it goes like this for me.....

AWD > RWD > MR (unless on really tuned cars like f1 cars) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD happy.gif (can you tell I hate FWD?)

And as for driving conditions... its like this...
Tarmac: RWD>AWD>FWD
Snow: AWD>FWD>RWD
Rain: AWD>FWD=RWD
Gravel: AWD>RWD=FWD

sidewaysgts: understeer like a b*tch?? very slow in corners? i think you are overexaggerating a little happy.gif

Also... not that this has to do with anything in this topic.. but I love it in initial D how (spoilers, highlight the text below)
the only 2 cars to beat the AE86 are both AWD... the EVO III and the WRX STi Type-R =)

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 08:10 PM
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sideways
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:45 PM


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Most awd systems to udnersteer like a b*tch especialy at high speeds. There are of course well tuned exceptions, like the skyline you mentioned, but they still understeer a lot compared to ff or rwd wink2.gif They make up for it with acceleratoin power though. If you can deal with the udnersteer their acceleration on straights and just at the endo f corners is awesome.
alanj
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:53 PM


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QUOTE (chaos @ Oct 22 2004, 03:30 PM)
Look at the evo, it's a rallyist's wet dream, fast in, fast out, get it?

i get it dry.gif not sure what the 2nd part of that pun has to do w/ rally drivers but i myself still prefer FR. I have driven an AWD car and it still doesnt compare in any way (except for cornering) to an FR in my opinion
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:23 PM


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Not that this has to do much with the topic... but which do you think would win on a road course... a WRC car or a Nextel Cup NASCAR? I definatley think it would be the WRC car, but my dad doesn't believe me and he thinks a NASCAR would destroy a WRC car on a road couse (hes a stupid NASCAR fan) rolleyes.gif
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Rayp
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:25 PM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 22 2004, 06:31 PM)
And as for driving conditions... its like this...
Tarmac: RWD>AWD>FWD
Snow: AWD>FWD>RWD
Rain: AWD>FWD=RWD
Gravel: AWD>RWD>FWD

Since i'm the local FF guy, i can say i disagree a little with your summary. FF aren't bad at all in gravel, sand or dirt. It's a lot easier to get the rear loose, and i can pull it off without much weight shifting (usually with only the steering and throttle). With some tuning (and a nice LSD and tyres) it can be made even better... Well, as long as the drivers has some experience doing this.

Of course i mean a sport compact car, not some family car.
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:38 PM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Oct 22 2004, 07:25 PM)
Since i'm the local FF guy, i can say i disagree a little with your summary. FF aren't bad at all in gravel, sand or dirt. It's a lot easier to get the rear loose, and i can pull it off without much weight shifting (usually with only the steering and throttle). With some tuning (and a nice LSD and tyres) it can be made even better... Well, as long as the drivers has some experience doing this.

Of course i mean a sport compact car, not some family car.


I'm basing the gravel part on a rally-type situation. Since im a rally guy, and i do A LOT of rally spectating... i can tell you that AWD cars are the fastest on gravel, RWD cars are next (sometimes), and FWD cars have problems with understeering on gravel, and therefore are the slowest (sometimes). Sure, you can get the rear end loose, but how are you gonna get the power on and go through the corner fast? becuase if you hit the gas pedal all it will do is make your car understeer. If you have a properly tuned FWD car on gravel though (as in set-up for rally), it will probably be quicker than a RWD car (look at the Mopar SRT-4 rally car, its pretty quick for a FWD) The difference between RWD and FWD isn't much on gravel though (you are right though, in certian situations FWD could possibly be better than RWD on gravel in a street car)... but AWD is wayyy out ahead of both of them smile.gif


Now that I've thought it out more throughly.. i think ill put an equals sign in there instead. Thanks smile.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 07:51 PM
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1slowsupra
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:53 PM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 22 2004, 06:31 PM)

Tarmac:  RWD>AWD>FWD

This really depends on what type of race and what the track is like. I used to watch BTTC alot back in the days, before they banned the AWD Audis. With sharp turns and corners, the order is AWD > RWD > FWD. With tracks with almost no turns just long swoops, FWD = RWD > AWD. They gave the AWD weight penaltys and yet they still dominated, dominating so much they kicked them out. laugh.gif Every other type of race, gravel, snow, rain I agree with you on there.


Im a fan of both AWD and FR. AWD has so much going for it, it is so easy to drive. Make a mistake and you can easily easily correct yourself. You can take a awd car anywhere. If I had a family and kids I would definitely get a WRX/STi or EVO. You would think I would be all over a AWD car by now...but still I perfer FR. FR is more of a challenge then anything. It levels the playing field and it requires more of the drivers SKILL then anything. AWD cars can almost drive themselves, with almost no skill at all to get through a corner. So IMO, not to bag on any of you in here or piss anyone off, having two extra front wheels to help guide you, to me is like training wheels. whistling.gif Theres a reason why every major automotive sport the vehicals are FR or RWD, cuz bottomline, they want SKILL to be the determining factor. Lets see, 90% sports cars, 95% exotics, NASCAR, F1, F3, ALMS, 24 Hours of LeMans, CART, JGTC all are rear driven cars. And yes, even the Skyline GTR is made FR just for JGTC.

This post has been edited by 1slowsupra on Oct 22 2004, 07:59 PM
Jabberwocky
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 08:04 PM


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Nd4SpdSe
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 08:30 PM


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IMO, AWD>FF>FR in any low traction environments
sideways
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:05 PM


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In low traction condition, agreed.
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Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:11 PM


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awd = great traction in any condition...

but in terms of steering response and that sharp turning ability.... RWD all the way.

rwd imho is the best drivetrain for dry weather conditions...

awd drifting is incredible. nothing like the zero countersteer.... where the car is going complete sideways but the front wheels are completely straight.
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Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:11 PM


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QUOTE (Nd4SpdSe @ Oct 22 2004, 08:30 PM)
IMO, AWD>FF>FR in any low traction environments

Which is why most factory cars out now are FF. It is safer. rolleyes.gif
sideways
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 09:13 PM


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Sadly, yup. and cheaper now too. Understeer = safe for drivers.. Who tend to slam on the brakes in an emergency.
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 11:50 PM


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I guess it depends a lot on living conditons weither you like AWD or FR more. I've been living in canada for the past 12 years, so my driving conditions suit AWD more... im sure if i lived in Arizona or SoCal i would probably like FR more since you can't really reap the major benefits of AWD unless the conditions get tricky...

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 22 2004, 11:53 PM
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But she looked 18 of..
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 12:31 AM


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Lets also not forget about mid-engine RWD and rear engine rwd(ie porsche's).

AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 08:27 AM


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QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 22 2004, 07:23 PM)
Not that this has to do much with the topic... but which do you think would win on a road course... a WRC car or a Nextel Cup NASCAR? I definatley think it would be the WRC car, but my dad doesn't believe me and he thinks a NASCAR would destroy a WRC car on a road couse (hes a stupid NASCAR fan) rolleyes.gif

I totally think a WRC car would definatly win on a road course, I mean sure NASCAR is fast on ovals but I mean put them on a road course like luguna seca or somthing like that, not those road courses NASCAR has. Also I like AWD and RWD a few FWD but it all depends where you live, I live in MN and you can drive RWD all season but it becomes a pain. Anyways RWD tends to act a little better at highspeeds ie: F1 . Both are good and suspension on AWD can always be set to lessen the understeer, or of course you can go with AYC like in the evos and that will actuall give you some oversteer. I'm a huge fan of RWD but I must give the AWD respect, I mean slap an anti-lag system on there and you're set.
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Posted: Oct 23 2004, 08:30 AM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Oct 22 2004, 07:25 PM)
QUOTE (awddrifter @ Oct 22 2004, 06:31 PM)
And as for driving conditions... its like this...
Tarmac:  RWD>AWD>FWD
Snow: AWD>FWD>RWD
Rain: AWD>FWD=RWD
Gravel: AWD>RWD>FWD

Since i'm the local FF guy, i can say i disagree a little with your summary. FF aren't bad at all in gravel, sand or dirt. It's a lot easier to get the rear loose, and i can pull it off without much weight shifting (usually with only the steering and throttle). With some tuning (and a nice LSD and tyres) it can be made even better... Well, as long as the drivers has some experience doing this.

Of course i mean a sport compact car, not some family car.

Yea FF's arent bad I have seen them in rally alot, gravel, dirt ,tarmac, they do it all, very nicely I might add but they are in no way compitition for the AWDs. FF"s arent bad if you tune them right.
TRD-hachi-roku
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 09:03 AM


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there are after market ayc's?????? ohmy.gif
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 09:20 AM


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ALS (anti lag systems, misfiring systems) are a waste of money. Theyre needed in professional races becuase they have turbo restrictors, if you dont have one of those on your car your doign a lot of un-needed damage.

Id like to believe the wrc car would win, but it might easily go to the nascar. They do handle pretty well, have the horsepower, and gearing to give them an advantage i think (and trust me, i hate nascar more then anyone here)

And ive yet to see an evo oversteer... Suspension settings only go so far in helping a car handle. Even then, forcing an udnersteering car to oversteer may not always be the best and fastest way, this may actualy hurt the traction the car is capable of. You can tune a suspension but you can never hide a charecteristics of a vehicles handling abilities.




...TWINKIES RULE! makefun.gif
F22A6
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:15 AM


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It all depends on what your gonna do
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:29 AM


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Actually I have seen alot of EVOs using zero-counter, I've also seen a few of them drifting, also the anti-lag system depends on just that, how much lag you have, sure its a waste for most people but if your a serious racer then it might be a good investment.
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:38 AM


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Id rather get a bov to help with lag instead of blowing up my manifolds. And you can drift a car and still take a line that resembles what you would have taken if you understeered. Imo theres 2 types of understeer/oversteer. What your car is doing, and what line your car is taking, know what i mean?

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 23 2004, 10:40 AM
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 10:45 AM


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Agreed, I was saying the anti-lag system for those who are harcore rally racers, you know true die hard fans, since an anti-lag system would simply blow up any regular manifold. Don't get me wrong I'm a die hard FR fan but you can't really saw AWD vehicles are bad, I mean they have become alot more sophisticated in the past 20 years.

This post has been edited by AETRAN86 on Oct 23 2004, 10:46 AM

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