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> Lets talk about what FFs can do..., Leave the drift debate at the door.
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 13 2003, 06:58 PM


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I'm only a few days from getting my AE86 from my brother (just waiting for is new car to be ready for the road). Meanwhile i want to talk about the great things FFs can do (since it's what i currently have, and about the only thing i have driven save a few times in my Father's and my brothers cars). I know most peoples around here have little faith in them, others just plainly hate them. Besides, some just blame FFs from replacing FRs, yet many of the cheap sport cars have been replaced by SUVs, wich are FAR worst in my opinion...

Another sad thing aside the poor reputation of FFs is there are very few places where you can learn about advanced FFs driving techniques. I had to look for a while on the net to find them (was at Drivingtechniques.co.uk, now dead link), most sites not even bothering, some almost claiming the only one is the hand brake turn...

..........

So here the ones i do know :

Left foot braking

Lift off oversteer

trail braking (or delayed braking)

Hand brake turn

Powerslide

Feint

Pendulum

Scandinavian flick


One thing i find puzzling is the claim FF can powerslide easily... Might be true on heavily race modified ones, but on thoses i owned or driven, turn too quickly or put too much power while cornering and they loose traction, going forward despite the wheels fully turned. Doing a powerslide does require some technique as far as i am concerned.

Left foot braking is a powerful technique, and has multiple uses besides racing at high speed. For exemple, in the snow or ice or any low traction surface, applying the brakes while attempting to accelerate prevent the wheels from spinning. But so few FFs drivers are aware of this and just curse their cars when they start to accelerate sideway instead of forward...

Engine braking is also a strong ally of the FFs as it can allow the car to oversteer, but also as it can be used as antilock brakes. As long as the engine don't stall, the front wheels can't lock under the braking, fairly useful when you have weak brakes or very bad tyres.

Let's see where this will lead to. I hope this won't lead to flames or bring back the "FFs can't drift" debates (please don't).

Tai-Mai-Shu
Posted: Jun 13 2003, 07:19 PM


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Hm..interesting...I usually believed that in order for an FF to drift , your drift relies on bodyroll of the chasis since the steering and powering is done by the same wheels.


Maybe it's easier to powerslide because FFs are stable enough to enter corners and continue drifting with it's nimble chasis?

Problem in my opinion is weight. When a more heavier engine is put into an FF, it's not as nimble as it should and it might cause some heavy nosedives in the corner and some serious understeer.

They can be cheaper to mod, but the AE86 is a prime example of an FR beater to racer car conversion.

Those techniques are pretty handy with the help of braking, but i don't think FFs can use throttle control can they?

just my 2 cents. feel free to correct any statement i said wrong, I'm here to learn.

S15-guy
Posted: Jun 13 2003, 07:45 PM


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I dont hate FF's, infact, I own and drive one, I just feel that as a performance car, they are not as good. Keep in mind, my car is a daily driver, not a racing car.

I know loosing traction in the front wheels while going around a corner is kinda fun, but not actually a drift, IMO, as you really need to slide the rear end around, but as you said, this is not a debate about the ability to drift or not, as it is simply a matter of interpretation.

You can still have a lot of fun in an FF, and plus, you can do reverse doughnuts, for that great 'in-car-carnival-ride' feeling. biggrin.gif
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 13 2003, 07:45 PM


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To Tai-Mai-Shu : First thing, if you want to avoid the flames of some regular here, avoid putting drift and FF in the same sentence. Not that I mind, but they do. So just say sliding through a corner, or use the shameful "ass dragging"...

As for nosedive and such, it can be corrected with suspension setup. Also, body roll isn't that much of an issue, most cars now have anti-sway bars... It's the weight shifting that count, and you can do a lot of crasy thing with the weight shifting. My personnaly way to correct the FFs understeer is to put more suspension travel and stiffer spring in front. Well, never actually did, simply because my civic 87 had thoses convenient torsion bars instead of springs (mean i could adjust them unlike normal springs).

FFs can use throttle to control a slide, but in a different way. Accelerating cancel oversteer, while decelerating increase front grip at the expense of the rear (oversteer). But there is also a special way you can use to swing the rear around while accelerating, but it's tricky.

Rayp
  Posted: Jun 13 2003, 08:05 PM


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QUOTE (S15-guy @ Jun 13 2003, 07:36 PM)
I dont hate FF's, infact, I own and drive one, I just feel that as a performance car, they are not as good. Keep in mind, my car is a daily driver, not a racing car.

I know loosing traction in the front wheels while going around a corner is kinda fun, but not actually a drift, IMO, as you really need to slide the rear end around, but as you said, this is not a debate about the ability to drift or not, as it is simply a matter of interpretation.

You can still have a lot of fun in an FF, and plus, you can do reverse doughnuts, for that great 'in-car-carnival-ride' feeling. biggrin.gif

S15-guy : Well, you can do a lot better than that smile.gif. BTW, what make and model is it?

I do know a cheap way to make a FF do 'in-car-carnival-ride' in the forward motion. Just slack the middle nut from the front chucks (the upper ones of course). That way there is a gap in response from the gas chuck, lettling some slack to the springs (note that you should not drive on the road after doing this). Now try some braking turns and acceleration-deceleration, you will notice the car is very ass happy, and you can even do counter-steering turns (mean the inside wheels makes the rear swing around). The bad thing is the car will violently oversteer with little warning at high speed cornering. I have yet to find a safe way to produce the same effect WITHOUT the unstability at higher speed...

Still, try that in an empty parking lot, lots of fun.
Tai-Mai-Shu
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 09:20 AM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Jun 13 2003, 07:36 PM)
To Tai-Mai-Shu : First thing, if you want to avoid the flames of some regular here, avoid putting drift and FF in the same sentence. Not that I mind, but they do. So just say sliding through a corner, or use the shameful "ass dragging"...

As for nosedive and such, it can be corrected with suspension setup. Also, body roll isn't that much of an issue, most cars now have anti-sway bars... It's the weight shifting that count, and you can do a lot of crasy thing with the weight shifting. My personnaly way to correct the FFs understeer is to put more suspension travel and stiffer spring in front. Well, never actually did, simply because my civic 87 had thoses convenient torsion bars instead of springs (mean i could adjust them unlike normal springs).

FFs can use throttle to control a slide, but in a different way. Accelerating cancel oversteer, while decelerating increase front grip at the expense of the rear (oversteer). But there is also a special way you can use to swing the rear around while accelerating, but it's tricky.

don't worry about it. Out of all the forums I've been this one sure seems to have kind folks, (at least karasac doesn't mind ) so flaming against FF isn't a big issue.

But i still don't understand. Until it is actually proven that FFs can out preform FRs in some drift competition, why would we stick to FF cars in the first place? Sure we lack alot of FR but the 240sx, FC, FD, and cars like WRX are equipped with AWD are now sold. What exactly is the advantage of FF over FR in a drift competition?


I , for one, would be more than happy to have an FF drift car since there are so many on the market, but it still doesn't beat my reason to get a 240sx.

Maybe alot of people discriminate against FF drifting because it's not "traditional japanese" style drifting, meaning the big folks on the other side of the world don't do it. But perhaps Signal might shoot for the FF aftermarket suspension in U.S for drifting.
Jayson
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 10:21 AM


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It's not that I hate FF's, it's just that FR/MR/AWD/RR have so much more potential in racing, but in the Rally scene, some FF's have out done the AWD cars, so they do have spunk in them.

As for yyour techniques, I've noticed a few things.

Lift off over steer can be used with most, and MR's especialy (sp?). My friend Angel has an MR2, and that thing can corner like there's no tomorrow, and you yoiu really don't need to brake. Lift off just shifts the weight forward, fiving the front tires 'more bite' allowing you to turn at faster speeds. This technique can be applied to most cars, but FFs especialy (sp?) since they naturaly understeer =p

Left foot braking can be applied to ANY, mostly turbo charged cars since you can brake and keep the turbo spooled up so you can get it instantly. This isn't a very practiced technique because it will eat you brakes up REAL fast, but it helps when qualifying to get you those few extra seconds off the clock.

Hand brake=evil. If you've been here long you already know my opinion on it >_<

Trail braking is a common technige used by all racers, so I won't go into that.

Flick, we all know what it is and know that all cars can use it so I won't say any more.

Fient, refer to Flick. happy.gif

So you can see most of these techniques can be used by mnost good drivers regardless of the car.

One that I am curious about though is the Pendulum technique you speak of. Is this one used only for FF's? and what is it exaclty? Does it go by any other name?

Over all, the order for drive train goes;

MR>FR>AWD>FF as far as racing is concerned. This is just my opinion of course, by I can get a lot of people to agree with me on this as well =p

FF's put way to much stress on the front tires. They need to turn, brake and accelerate. Thats not very econmoic in my opinion for when you racing.

Ciao
Jayson
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 10:24 AM


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QUOTE (Tai-Mai-Shu @ Jun 14 2003, 09:11 AM)

But i still don't understand. Until it is actually proven that FFs can out preform FRs in some drift competition, why would we stick to FF cars in the first place? Sure we lack alot of FR but the 240sx, FC, FD, and cars like WRX are equipped with AWD are now sold. What exactly is the advantage of FF over FR in a drift competition?

I just saw this. If some one could please explain this for it would be AWESOME. I've done this one to many times and I don't want to again. Hell, didn't we have not one, not two, not three, but a whole load of threads where this came up?
S15-guy
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 10:26 AM


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we certainly did:

here

and here

and here too

how, as the tile says, lets 'leave the drift debate at the door'
SiGNAL*
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 10:44 AM


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FF's make for good beaters!!(cheap cars that you dont care about and usually crash on purpose!)
Some Civic's and Integra's can look REALLY nice...but FF's cant do anything that FR's or AWD's cant...
S15-guy
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 11:40 AM


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or a first car that you can actually afford insurance on!
Tai-Mai-Shu
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 11:48 AM


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whoops, my bad. Didn't notice it was a repeated topic on this forum, I haven't been here for awhile.

Anyways thanks for posting up those links, i'll read them

Edit: After reading all those links i've come to the conclusion

- FF cars cannot drift because it bends the laws of physics (which I have learned like have a dozen terms from reading)

- Neo vash has no....uh..I don't know if the administrators allow me to say it.

- Powersliding and drifting are two different things.


karasac
Posted: Jun 14 2003, 03:38 PM


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QUOTE (Tai-Mai-Shu @ Jun 14 2003, 11:39 AM)
whoops, my bad. Didn't notice it was a repeated topic on this forum, I haven't been here for awhile.

Anyways thanks for posting up those links, i'll read them

Edit: After reading all those links i've come to the conclusion

- FF cars cannot drift because it bends the laws of physics (which I have learned like have a dozen terms from reading)

- Neo vash has no....uh..I don't know if the administrators allow me to say it.

- Powersliding and drifting are two different things.

you have learned well grasshopper
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 14 2003, 06:09 PM


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Jayson : Of course, most of the techniques i have put there aren't new, they aren't FF specific either... It's just that you need to know they exist, and that they apply to FFs...

Lift off oversteer work differently in an FF than in a MR or a FR (but quite similar to a AWD). At high speed, lifting off will give grip to the front, but will also break loose the rear, but without the need to lock them or spin them (you basically rotate the car over the front wheels). Of course the result vary from one car to another, some FFs are really hard to lift off, others will do it easily.

QUOTE

Left foot braking can be applied to ANY, mostly turbo charged cars since you can brake and keep the turbo spooled up so you can get it instantly. This isn't a very  practiced technique because it will eat you brakes up REAL fast, but it helps when qualifying to get you those few extra seconds off the clock.


LFB is typicaly used in FF cars as it has very little use for other type of cars (your exemple is an exeption, not the rule). LFB unload the rear and help corner (in FF that is), and also prevent wheel spin as the braking replace the ground friction when it is too low. You don't need much brake pressure to make this work...

QUOTE

Flick, we all know what it is and know that all cars can use it so I won't say any more.

Fient, refer to Flick. happy.gif


Got you on that one, you confuse things here (or don't know what i'm talking about). "Scandinavian flick" is getting sideway (using LFB / lift off then keeping the brakes), facing opposite of the corner, building up the springs (you are sliding, most likely in the dirt or snow) then release the brakes the last moment to swing the opposite way, into the corner. This technique needs skills to perform, and seldom used on tarmac (it's a RALLY technique). I believe it's mostly a FF techniques as other drivetrain have little need for such a overkill technique to ensure the car will turn.

A feint is pretty quick, you don't slide. It can be used to initiate a drift in a FR/MR or oversteer in a FF (and AWD). Same technique, different effects.

QUOTE

One that I am curious about though is the Pendulum technique you speak of. Is this one used only for FF's? and what is it exaclty? Does it go by any other name?


Pendulum is rocking the car heavily during a VERY tight corner to use the rebound grip to turn. You see one in the first episode of ID, when Takumi beat the FD for the first time. It's not a typical drift technique, but it's used a lot in Rally. Any cars can use this, but suspension suffer a lot from that technique, it's more suited for rally cars or cars with a lot of suspension travel (you need clearance or else you will bottom out).

cheevoon
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 03:04 AM


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so..the conclusion is: FF car can drift( i dun care bout what u all think, i can drift my AE92 but why can't you?) , but it require more skills and more to initiate the drift...

It's not widely used in rally because it needs more speed to loose traction and not that easy to drift compare to AWD


FF car does hv understeer problem, but IMHO, Rx7's understeer problem is far more prominent and serious...

Case closed.

cheevoon
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 03:08 AM


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for those who doesnt own any FF car, get urself a copy of Colin Mcrae 2.0 and try drifting with Mini Cooper... laugh.gif you will get what i mean
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 15 2003, 06:05 AM


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Argn... I said, please leave the drift debate at the door, as i don't want my thread to be highjacked by it.

I'm talking about legitimate FF advanced driving techniques, not why they can't drift or why other drivetrain can be superior in a race (and FFs do have some edge on dirt, snow, grass, and that before adding any electronic junk to control the spining).

So please, keep the topic on FF drivetrain and noting else.
cheevoon
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 08:23 AM


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then, i would say FF is capable of what FR can do but most of the time we are "simulating"it...

|[ .tainted. ]|
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 08:41 AM


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ff's are safe to drive on snow biggrin.gif
unlike fr's that always fishtails
and unlike awd's that i think consume too much fuel and more expensive than most front wheels
ff's are the ideal everyday car in my opinion [especially in the snowy areas]
SuperMazdaKart
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 09:30 AM


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if your driving on gravel you can put the handbrake on & throttle it in reverse to flick up stones at unsuspecting poor victims..
Jayson
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 11:27 AM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Jun 14 2003, 06:00 PM)

Got you on that one, you confuse things here (or don't know what i'm talking about). "Scandinavian flick" is getting sideway (using LFB / lift off then keeping the brakes), facing opposite of the corner, building up the springs (you are sliding, most likely in the dirt or snow) then release the brakes the last moment to swing the opposite way, into the corner. This technique needs skills to perform, and seldom used on tarmac (it's a RALLY technique). I believe it's mostly a FF techniques as other drivetrain have little need for such a overkill technique to ensure the car will turn.

When I said "Refer to Flick", I meant that we all new what it is and that there was no need to go into detail. But you took care of that for me happy.gif
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 15 2003, 03:31 PM


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QUOTE (Jayson @ Jun 15 2003, 11:18 AM)

When I said "Refer to Flick", I meant that we all new what it is and that there was no need to go into detail. But you took care of that for me happy.gif

You sure? To me the is a HUGE difference between a Flick and a Feint, even if they use the same basic principle to work.
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 15 2003, 06:01 PM


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I did dig out thoses infos some of my friend "stole" from the defunct "drivingtechniques.co.uk"... Here the meat :

FRONT WHEEL DRIVE

Front wheel drive, sometimes referred to as 'Wrong Wheel Drive', is both the easiest to drive and the most difficult to fully master.

Almost anybody can drive a FWD car fairly quickly, they can appear to be right on the limit when in fact they are only on the limit of the front tyres. Exploiting the genuine limits of the entire FWD car can be a real challenge.

The difficulty arises from the fact that you have little control over the rear wheels. In a rear wheel drive car you have control over the front wheels with the steering and the rear wheels with the power. But in front wheel drive both control forces are focused on the front wheels.

On top of this, the fact that putting power to wheels creates the reduction of traction, and understeer is the most uncontrollable handling characteristic means the whole set up should be a recipe for disaster.

However.... The advances in suspension and handling setups on road and race cars have lessened these characteristics and turned some front wheel drive cars into extremely drivable cars. Certainly most of the new hot hatches and even some of the older ones such as Escorts (particularly XR3 etc.) have good levels of front wheel grip.

The techniques involved in effectively driving a front wheel drive car are quite complex and require serious practice to get right. The most demanding motorsport for front wheel drive car control must be rallying or derivatives where you can be running on loose surfaces and need to find sure fire ways of creating oversteer.

SCANDINAVIAN FLICK

Used as a way of committing to medium slippy corners at speed by eliminating understeer. Particularly if the entrance to the corner is tight on a surface such as gravel, you need a way of quickly turning into the corner without the possibility of understeer.

Using left foot braking, you should aim to put the car into a sideways skid heading down the road towards the corner whilst the car is pointing in the opposite direction to the corner (e.g. pointing right heading towards a left hand turn).

The car can then be held in that position by flooring the brakes and locking up all the wheels or just balancing the brakes and throttle.

At the point when you want to turn in you can come off the brakes and let the car change direction and swing into oversteer in the other direction. It is then a case of balancing the brakes, throttle and steering using the left foot braking technique to balance the car through and out of the corner.

HANDBRAKE TURN

The hand brake is the savior of front wheel drive in many situation. The front wheel drive car is by far the best at handbrake turns and by far the easiest to master them in.

Due to the fact that the front wheels are driven and the handbrake acts on the rear wheels you can pull the handbrake without coming off the gas.

To perform a 180 and continue in the other direction.

Slow down to about 20-30ish in second gear, pull the handbrake hard enough to lock the rear wheels and steer smoothly in either direction. The car will start to swap ends. When at about 140ish degrees, hit the gas, drop the handbrake, select 1st gear and dump the clutch, all in one smooth motion (takes practice).

This should finish off the 180 and start pulling you down the road amidst a cloud of tyre smoke.

LEFT-FOOT BRAKING

Left foot braking is probably the most important technique to master in driving a front wheel drive car effectively.

In order to defeat understeer you need to provide more grip to the front wheels than the rear. To be able to commit to a corner completely and at speed you need to be sure that, when you turn in the car isn't going to go straight on (understeer).

Approaching a corner you should slow down as usual using your right foot on the brake, maybe a bit of toe and heel. When in the desired gear but still maybe too fast, swap your feet over, moving your right foot back to the accelerator and your left foot over to the brake.

It is possible with some gear boxes to change gear without the clutch without causing damage, meaning you could use your left foot to brake from full speed and blip the throttle in-between each gear. This should only be used if the gear box can cope with it, such as a competition straight cut gearbox. Whilst it is possible to do this with a synchro-mesh gearbox, they really don't like it and after prolonged abuse will just end up on the road!!!

Anyway....

You are now using your left foot to slow the car down the last few MPH and about to turn into the corner. If at this point you hit the gas with your right foot, brake with your left foot and turn in, all in one smooth motion, the rear wheels will fully or partially lock. This resulting difference in grip levels will throw the car into oversteer.

From this point, you need to balance the car by steering in the direction you want the car to travel and braking / lifting off the gas for more oversteer, more gas / less brakes for less oversteer. In reality I often just keep the accelerator planted and balance the car using the brakes and steering.

This technique overcomes understeer and allows you to keep the power on through the corner.

LIFT-OFF OVERSTEER

When cornering at speed in a front wheel drive car, the weight distribution between the front and rear wheels is fairly even. There is obviously far more weight on the outside wheels than the inside wheels. This is assuming a fairly neutral throttle position.

If you lift off the throttle at this point, the weight will move from the rear to the front. This will mean that the weight distribution will be likely to be in the following order, most to least:-

Front Outside
Front Inside
Rear Outside
Rear Inside

If you analyse this, there will be little or no weight on the inside rear wheel, but probably a bit of weight on the rear outside wheel. Bags of weight on the outside front wheel (the one which does most of the turning) and a fair chunk of weight on the inside front as well.

If you link this situation with the steering you will have due to the corner, the result will be that the front will continue to turn but the rear will have so little traction that the car will go into oversteer.

Once sideways, the slide can be controlled with opposite lock steering and throttle. More throttle = less sideways.

SLALOM

The slalom in a front wheel drive car is not as simple as in rear wheel drive. The technique will alter depending on the surface, conditions, distance of cones etc.

The most effective way of driving the slalom is to build a rhythm and be able to keep up a good speed. The best way of doing this is to overcome understeer by either using left foot braking of throttle off oversteer.

Using left foot braking the procedure would be as follows.

Using a gear with lots of torque at the relevant speed, approach the first cone to the left or right with your left foot hovering over the brake. turn in and hi the has aiming for the slightly wide of the opposite side of the next cone. As you steer to change direction hit the brake and the gas to lock the rear wheels, delivery weight and power to the front wheels creating oversteer. As the car oversteers round the next cone wind on enough opposite lock to balance the skid with the power and brakes. When you want to change direction for the next cone, simply come off the brakes and then back on and the car will pendulum round to oversteer in the other direction.

Easy!
---------------------------------------------------------
I think this post is long enough smile.gif

Jayson
Posted: Jun 15 2003, 06:55 PM


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kewlio's, but I already new all that. But neato none the less!
bunta_boi
Posted: Jun 16 2003, 05:06 PM


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before speaking, you hafta have the experience to know what u talkin bout... I rode in my friends RSX and that thing can really corner..just around 174hp too...try going through those circle things at around 120km.....drift or no drift....high speed in low speed corners is still pimp! it dont matter whether its the best, worst or no technique....as long as you can enjoy yourself without peeing yourself biggrin.gif

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