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| Initial D World - Discussion Board / Forums > Technical Discussion > Drift a FR, Heel & Toe ---- HOW??? |
| Posted by: Snoxxy Dec 15 2002, 05:18 AM |
| Hi, I am new to this Board, and sorry for my english, but I am from Germany. Ok, now to my particular problem. I am only 17, and I'm not allowed to even drive in Germany, driving age here is 18. But my Dad lives in NY, and i visited him sometimes, and i made my license there. so now I' drinving sometimes on parkinglots. My stepdad here in Germany owns a FR car, but everytime i try to do that HEEL & TOE thing, i do something wrong, because I shut the car off, just like in Initial D when itsuki tries to do that. Can someone explain the technique to me??? Thx Snoxxy |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 15 2002, 07:42 PM |
| here we go again ... ok first you need to know this a heavy racing technique, the first thing you learn in racing school, the technique is basicaly used to downshift whitout making your car lose too much speed, you have, whit your left foot to press the clutch pedal than whit the top (toe) of your right foot press the brake pedal, and keep the bottom (heel) of that same right foot on the gas pedal (DO NOT PRESS IT IMMEDIATLY) now that you have your feet positioned you have to downshift, and AFTER THIS, give little hits on the gas pedal to make your revs go up .... note 1 : this must be fast and precise note 2 : PIN THIS ! |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 15 2002, 08:24 PM | ||
I am not familiar with this technique, mind elaborating a bit? |
| Posted by: cheevoon Dec 15 2002, 09:15 PM |
wat he meant was to use a Staple to Pin break and oil pedal together, good idea for a beginner to try Heel&Toe I pressumed that u r drifting with benz or BMW rite? I dun usually use Heel&Toe... anyway.. The main purpose to use Heel&Toe is to keep the cornering being precised and maintain the rev... am I right? actually we dun need heel&toe most of the time... 1. Press Brake Pedal 2. A Damn Fast Gear Down Shifting. (practice please, my rivals always loose because of this step) 3. Steering Wheel Maneuver 4. Oil Pedal to control ur speed as well as direction |
| Posted by: ryosuke Dec 15 2002, 10:03 PM |
| Heel and toe is used to match the revs for when you downshift. But with synchro's in place, now a days you don't need to heel and toe. |
| Posted by: Cubits Dec 16 2002, 07:00 AM |
| If you're downshifting aggressively to make use of the engine braking, blipping the gas stops the rear wheels locking. This is also handy for hard tuned engines with high compression ratios. Unless you are pushing it, you shouldnt need to worry about it. You can also shift cars without using the clutch by matching revs with a blip, which looks cool, and may be slightly faster...just don't go ruining nice gearboxes learning  |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 16 2002, 08:48 AM | ||||
lols he was talkign to a mod, mega mod or admin, asking to make this a pinned thread hehe ~*TOPIC PINNED*~ I tried heel and toe wif my dad's E30....I got as far as brake and rev b4 everythign fell apart ahahah. syncros make things too easy....and power steering too....damn you people with all your luxuries |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 16 2002, 09:32 AM |
I like your sig  |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 16 2002, 05:32 PM |
| hmmmmm ...asian chick ... |
| Posted by: sushim0t0 Dec 16 2002, 06:56 PM |
| One question... When you're doing heel & toe or any other technique.. how hard do you press the brake and when do you release it? I understand that you clutch in first then brake then down shift. But how hard should I press on the brake and how long to i brake before i can release it? Thanks. |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 16 2002, 07:29 PM |
| depends on : the speed your going, the type of curve you have ahead, the quality of your brakes...etc ...there isnt a precise way to apply the brakes ... |
| Posted by: cheevoon Dec 16 2002, 08:23 PM |
| maya is right.. basically it's base on feeling too... but dun put urself at risk... drifting is cool.. but nowadays i use grip driving style most of the time.. when i 1st "discover" drifting.. it was in a sandy area.. hope u enjoy urs.. HV FUN! |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 16 2002, 08:59 PM | ||
it's Kaya ! maya is a woman's name !!!!!! |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 16 2002, 10:17 PM |
hehe, he called you a woman.  |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 16 2002, 11:26 PM |
| lol I was like "I dind't know she was a chick haha." and BoA is hot..didn't we already have this conversation?? |
| Posted by: Alex Dec 17 2002, 01:23 PM |
| yeah, in the Initial D live action movie thread. they were talking about Boa playing Mogi Natsuki. And yeah she is quite a looker. On the back of my sisters Boa: Twilight cd case, there is Boa on the back and this Boa looks nothing like yours... |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 17 2002, 04:24 PM |
then that must meen there are TWO BOA'S!  Oh Joy |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 17 2002, 09:50 PM |
| ahha she changed a LOT since she came out like wut..3 years ago? she's dyed her hair so many times I swear she gonna be bald by the time she's 20..lols. neways.....back to initial D...haha |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 17 2002, 10:01 PM |
nothing wrong with dying your hair.......  |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 17 2002, 10:04 PM |
| dying hair is kool...but it's hella bad fo your hair. |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 17 2002, 10:20 PM |
| ohhhh, how sad. *trys to un-dye hair* It's not coming out! |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 17 2002, 10:47 PM |
| hurry up..BLEACH IT!!! I heard that bleaching your hair is GOOD lol j/k(seriously dont' do this hehe) |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 17 2002, 11:08 PM |
| *runs to grab bleach* |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 18 2002, 05:28 PM |
| huh ...ok ...well *watches jayson running for bleach !* |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 18 2002, 08:14 PM |
| ahhaha the power of suggestion is amazing |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 18 2002, 09:25 PM |
Are you trying to suggest something?  |
| Posted by: karasac Dec 19 2002, 12:15 AM |
| ya, he suggested to go dye ur hair. |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 19 2002, 01:56 PM |
| Done and done, and I do mean done |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 20 2002, 03:01 PM |
| it's only good if you dye it bright pink..lol
|
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 20 2002, 03:19 PM |
| bright pink it is! |
| Posted by: Alex Dec 20 2002, 07:44 PM |
| why the hell did yall waste half a page on hair dye? |
| Posted by: karasac Dec 20 2002, 07:53 PM |
| cuz they wanted free posts |
| Posted by: Alex Dec 20 2002, 08:14 PM |
| lol, well you just worked your way to 400 with that one. mhm |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 20 2002, 10:21 PM |
| waste? |
| Posted by: karasac Dec 20 2002, 11:38 PM |
| want? |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 20 2002, 11:40 PM |
| w3rd? |
| Posted by: karasac Dec 20 2002, 11:48 PM |
| not? |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 20 2002, 11:50 PM |
| pants? |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 21 2002, 01:49 PM |
| rotary ! |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 21 2002, 01:50 PM |
| peanuts? |
| Posted by: tofu boy Dec 21 2002, 05:10 PM |
| Step by step on how to heel and toe- this is the scenirio, ur on a straight and theres a right hander comming up: 1. let of gas pedal as u begin to enter turn 2. hit and hold the clutch 3 use the toe of ur right foot to press the brake while keeping the heel on the gas with out pressing it. 4. down shift, hold the clutch in and tap the gas with ur heel to match the revs of the previous gear 5. let go of clutch, and steer into turn. *hold the brake for as long as u feel needed to gain enough control to enter the turn* *all of the this is done moments before entering the turn, if done correctly, it should be no more than 2-3 sec. _____________ The basic idea of heel and toe is to rev match before entering a turn. It is pretty much like double clutching with braking. This technique can be used for both grip or drifting. Also, most modern sports cars have "syncros" which does most of the rev-matching for u but heel and toe can still be used. Hope this helps makes things more clear. P.S. Kaya, ur explanation was a bit vague, so i just decide to put up mine, feel free to correct me. |
| Posted by: tofu boy Dec 21 2002, 05:20 PM |
| Also, whats up with all the useless posts? Is really bullshit that half a page is wasted on hair color in a post about heel and toe. I've been with the forum or like 3 months now and i only have 88 posts. I see that some of u guys that have only joined for 3 weeks or so have 200+ post and most of which are just 1 line incoherent stuff. I dont want to be mean or anything, but just try to keep stuff to the topic, is a B*tch to scroll through 2 pages of uselessness. Also, for all those newbies, look around the forum before posting a question or something. The answer or ur question has probably been posted somewhere. -Tofu |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 21 2002, 07:09 PM |
| well your explanation is alright ...! lol i admit it was 3:15 am here and i was tired of explaining all this to new guys ...even thought some just don't understand |
| Posted by: cheevoon Dec 21 2002, 07:18 PM | ||
thankx.. i wish to say it out long time ago...but in the view that certain ppl here are the frequent contributors/hold important post... i think that they are smart enough to understand how a forum works..and how to fully make use of the chat room.. Tofu boy's advices apply not only here.. but in other topics as well. |
| Posted by: karasac Dec 21 2002, 09:34 PM |
| ive given a lot of usefull info in this forum, so i think im entitled to a little uselessness , ill try to keep it to a minimum though, unlike someone *coughJaysoncough*. just kidding ur my homie dude. |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 21 2002, 09:44 PM |
| Hey, I always give useful info at the stat of the thread, then I get silly |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 21 2002, 09:46 PM |
| I would like to say that I help first and then spam...but I admit that I only spam... I'll cut down on it. sorry pplz. |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 21 2002, 10:03 PM |
| You know, half of these threads shouldn't be here really, they just talk about racing techniques, not much about the anime itself. So I see it as open season |
| Posted by: ]{aya Dec 21 2002, 10:06 PM |
| true true ...but its kinda "related" to initial d so... |
| Posted by: Indecisive Dec 21 2002, 10:10 PM |
| well..I figure nething htat has to do with cars/racing can exhist in this forum... |
| Posted by: Alex Dec 21 2002, 10:12 PM |
| true, they use these techniques and itsuki is a crash dummy for them, takumi masters a technique ex:air drift and soon youll see Itsuki flipping his 85 off Mt. Akina |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 21 2002, 10:17 PM | ||
LOL I mean, there should be a seperate section for racing techniques since we get so many questions about them. |
| Posted by: tofu boy Dec 22 2002, 11:12 AM |
| yea, the racing tech. should be new topic, but i mean the hair thing was a bit out of place. theres the same discussiom in the off topic forum. |
| Posted by: teknoman Dec 24 2002, 10:42 AM |
| I got another information about Misconceptions about heel & toe check this website out http://www.geocities.com/go2iddrift/heelandtoe.html |
| Posted by: J4P RX Dec 24 2002, 11:09 AM |
| That article isnt very good and contains wrong information. Lee |
| Posted by: Jayson Dec 28 2002, 10:49 PM |
| Bad article. I could write a better one. Or at least provide correct information. |
| Posted by: Sugoi Kuruma Jan 10 2003, 08:51 AM | ||
err bullshit ur article would be full of spam and prolly further from the truth |
| Posted by: Jayson Jan 10 2003, 05:21 PM |
| Why do you hate me? |
| Posted by: Rownan Jan 11 2003, 10:04 PM |
| Okay, haha. Not a single post here answers the question originally asked, which is.... The application of heel-toe to initiate a slide. Heel-toe to a drifter means something more than revmatching while braking, it is a means to shift the weight of the car and produce oversteer. Also called a braking drift, the driver uses the brake to shift the weight of the car to the front tires, and at the same time downshifting and hitting the gas to bring the back end around. You can see Takumi using this heel-toe technique many times during Initial D. Whoever made the show was a pure genius, they even go as far as to show the weight of the car shifting forward and the rear tires losing grip as the driver brings the revs up to start the slide.  '95 S14 www.projectaspec.com |
| Posted by: Jayson Jan 12 2003, 06:30 AM |
| *applauds* very well put my friend, couldn't have made it any simpler myself |
| Posted by: |[ .tainted. ]| Jan 12 2003, 06:39 AM |
| could someone explain the footwork during heel toe in a detailed manner? do you press brake, clutch... then gas... [change gears] then take foot of gas? then press it again while letting go of clutch? then brakes are out. what i said is probably 98% wrong and would cause a car to explode so... could someone explain?
|
| Posted by: Rownan Jan 12 2003, 05:45 PM |
| Step 1: Brake using the front of the right foot. Step 2: With the left foot, disengage the clutch. Step 3: Downshift Step 4: While still on the brake, use the bottom part of your right foot to depress the throttle. If you are simply revmatching then you're gonna want to blip the throttle to the desired RPM, then let out the clutch. If you are trying to start a drift, then it is a quick, fluid motion: Brake, clutch in, shift, and while the weight is loaded to the front, bring the revs way up and pop the clutch(let it out quickly). As the back end swings out you want to get off the brake and modulate the throttle, and steer through the drift. Heel-toe is amisleading term I think, cause most people probably don't JUST use the toes of the right foot for the brake... They'll use one half of the foot for the brake and one half for the gas. The foot won't be sideways but more of at a 45 degree angle. Like me, I have racing pedals so my brake pedal and gas pedal are so close together, I actually use the ball of my foot for the brake and "roll" my foot onto the gas... Watch initial D, he does it during the opening credits. |
| Posted by: Jayson Jan 12 2003, 08:08 PM |
| Yeah, he's right. For the most part, you jusr rool your foot to blip the gas a bit. Not hard really, just need to practice, and you'll be doing it with out even thinking about it. |
| Posted by: Sugoi Kuruma Jan 12 2003, 09:17 PM | ||
sure u could have made it simpler jayson, u could have given out the wrong info and used just one line! as u normally do.. i dont hate u jayson, i dont hate anyone, its just wasted energy. i dont like ur spam, and the fact that u think ppl actually wanna wade through ur endless posting, be it a confirmation of what has just been said (which isnt needed) or just some 1 line ramble/dribble (also not wanted) |
| Posted by: Jayson Jan 12 2003, 09:27 PM |
| I give the man props, and you start dissing me, what the hell is wrong with that picture? |
| Posted by: TARMAC SPCL Jan 31 2003, 12:09 AM |
| HEAL AND TOE IS ALSO GOOD FOR NOT DISTERBING THE CHASSIS WILE CORNERING. IT MAKES FOR VERY SMOTH DOWNSHIFTS AND FAST DRIVING. HEY IS THERE ANY BMW PEOPLE OUT THERE IN INITIAL D WORLD? BMW POWER ALL THE WAY,BUT 4AGE POWER IS COOL TO. |
| Posted by: |[ .tainted. ]| Jan 31 2003, 09:03 AM |
| i think indecisive is a bmw fan you two should get along just fine |
| Posted by: Indecisive Jan 31 2003, 10:53 AM | ||
sorry for having to close your first post man but hope you understand and...BMW OWNS JOO ALL FOR FREE!!!!!(eat THAT jayson..lol) I drive an E30 BMW 325i, the 1988 model, just before they started putting the nice plastic bumpers. and also have a E30 CMW 318i, the 1984 model. if you haven't figured out already, I LOVE the E30 style heh. wut bout you? |
| Posted by: Tai-Mai-Shu Jan 31 2003, 02:44 PM |
| Uh..sorry to interrupt your conversation *ahemcoughcough spamming coughahem* ( ) but can i ask a question about the topic? Nissan and other companies recently created new technology involving the drivetrain and gears. The new Nissan SUV called the "Murano" features a function such as a CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission) that causes smooth shifting while keeping revs high. With this and other companies putting down new technology , is heel-toe-downshift necessary when attempting a drift? |
| Posted by: GoFastLookSlow Jan 31 2003, 03:37 PM | ||
A CVT has no "gears", rather it is infinitely variable, depending on the the position of the throttle and such. Its more of an auto than a manual, but you can use it like a manumatic, in that case it usually has 6 preset gears (Im talking bout the Audi CVT). They have no clutch. Theyre pretty cool and good for gas mileage and medium performance... but stick to manuals for the real road/circuit racing. |
| Posted by: Tai-Mai-Shu Jan 31 2003, 05:11 PM |
| ah. thanks. |
| Posted by: SiGNAL Jan 31 2003, 06:57 PM |
| ///M POWER!! YEAA, love them bimmers. . . so beautiful . .do u get the magazine Bimmer??(i think thats wut its called, i forget)they are making a project e30 if im not mistaken . .ahh, i forget the model codes for bm's. they are so beautiful tho, luxury and performance, wowzers. . . |
| Posted by: Indecisive Feb 1 2003, 12:23 AM |
| imma be ///M Powered by the time I'm 25 baby E30 is 83-91, E36 is 92-99, E46 is 00-present and these chassis codes are for the 3 series. the 5, 7 and 8 series have different chasis codes. |
| Posted by: Sugoi Kuruma Feb 3 2003, 12:13 AM | ||
heel-toe never has been and never will be NECESSARY in order to perform a drift but i spose that technology could remove the need for heel-toe, im not really sure , i dont know anything about that tech |
| Posted by: Jayson Feb 3 2003, 11:59 AM |
| That doesn't sound cool, why take all the fun out of driving? |
| Posted by: Sugoi Kuruma Feb 3 2003, 10:28 PM |
| because ppl are lazy and ppl with money want everyhting to be easy |
| Posted by: Jayson Feb 3 2003, 11:17 PM |
| I'm lazy as hell, why do you think I only work a few hours a week, and I still love to drive clutch |
| Posted by: *Capsulesâ„¢* Mar 5 2003, 08:26 PM |
| Who doesn't like to drive clutch? Lazy people like it. |
| Posted by: Jayson Mar 5 2003, 08:39 PM |
| w3rd! |
| Posted by: *Capsulesâ„¢* Mar 5 2003, 09:53 PM |
| My Friend got a new 2003 Toyota Celica on Monday The Good: Manual Transmission The Bad: FF, and it's a GT (I was hoping for GT-S) |
| Posted by: Jayson Mar 9 2003, 05:23 PM |
| Celica?!? Why? I don't get people sometimes |
| Posted by: *Capsulesâ„¢* Mar 15 2003, 09:17 AM |
I don't know  well . . . I don't know why he got a FF instead of a FR.I would have gotten a used FD. It's almost the same price. |
| Posted by: Jayson Mar 15 2003, 09:06 PM |
| FD=10-12G's, a lot cheaper then a Celica whitch is what, 17-19G's? |
| Posted by: RyousukeT. Mar 19 2003, 12:52 AM |
| my frien is getting 15k to buy a car and hes either going for a civic hb or a supra i like the supra better caus its FR and hes too stuipid to have a rotary so i dont want him to get a FD hed just blow the seal in 2 hrs |
| Posted by: S15-guy Mar 19 2003, 08:55 AM |
| supra owns civic for free! |
| Posted by: Indecisive Mar 19 2003, 10:49 AM |
| E30 M3 sport Evolution!!! sells for around $10,000-15,000 american but you'll have to import from Europe if you can find one. only a few hundred made...230hp. or go for the inline 6 version..even more power......and even more rare...hehe those are my suggestions. |
| Posted by: Jayson Mar 19 2003, 05:16 PM | ||
You Lie! |
| Posted by: shuLi Apr 25 2003, 02:48 AM |
maybe hes toking bout the civic hatches...... i dunno....  but i like lexus sc400 twin turbo!! w00t w00t |
| Posted by: awddrifter Apr 27 2003, 10:27 AM | ||
no!! no!! let him get the civic so he can do this to it!!! yeah!!! http://www.geocities.com/midnightdrift2002/honda.html
|
| Posted by: AE86Trueno Nov 25 2003, 09:33 PM |
| ya but if you step on the gas and the clutch at the same time isnt that bad for the engine??? |
| Posted by: S15-guy Nov 25 2003, 11:03 PM |
| no |
| Posted by: Neo Xian Wu Nov 26 2003, 12:47 AM |
| actually if you ride the clutch (keep the clutch pedal slightly depressed while pressing the accelerator) you will wear out your clutch. that's another thing you guys are forgetting while you're thinking about being Keiichi Tsuchiya and Nobuteru Taniguchi. DRIFTING HURTS CLUTCHES. not saying that i'm against drifting. just want to let you know before you go out and buy some random rwd vehicle, try drifting everywhere you go and wonder why a month later your clutch is slipping. |
| Posted by: S15-guy Nov 26 2003, 10:25 AM |
| riding the clutch = bad but if the clutch is all the way down, you can stomp on the accelerator as hard as you like. (within reason of course, dont sit in your car redlining for 20 minutes) |
| Posted by: AE86Trueno Nov 26 2003, 04:45 PM |
| OOOOooOoO so you can step on clutch and gas at the same time. my dad told me it was bad. |
| Posted by: TyPe-R Nov 26 2003, 10:57 PM |
| when you start driving, you'll realize alot of the shit yur parents told you about driving stick is just bullshit so you dont drive like an imbecile. my dad told me alot of shit about driving, and when i started driving, i figured out that i didnt have to do half the shit he told me to do and id still be alright. so wait until you drive, and you'll figure out what is good and what is bad. |
| Posted by: Neo Xian Wu Nov 26 2003, 11:42 PM |
| just make sure that if you're stepping on the clutch and gas that you pay attention to your revs. and 20mins should be more like 20secs. you redline for too long and you run the risk of breaking something. "valve float" (when the valve springs aren't strong enough to firmly hold the valves) comes into play at high RPM. plus it's possible to easily overheat. |
| Posted by: AE86Trueno Nov 27 2003, 01:46 AM |
thanks you guyz I start driveing next year cant wait.  |
| Posted by: Indecisive Nov 27 2003, 02:17 AM |
| ....this is how my dad taught me stick....he sat me down in the driver's seat...told me in first I had to balance the clutch and the throttle..we drove around for 10 minutes with him giving me instruction...went home.. next day I ask for a lesson, he takes the keys, tosses them to me and says "you know how, just practice" and sits back down and watches TV. This was a really good way to learn stick..just driving in the backroads until I got comfortable at my own pace. he could've given me some more tips..but overall it was a good way to learn...I think. |
| Posted by: Neo Xian Wu Nov 27 2003, 02:46 PM |
| meh... you guys had it easy. NO ONE taught me how to drive stick. i had to teach myself. the jerking studder stall is the worst. especially when there's people around. but after about a week, i could take off from a light without lighting up the tires. it just takes time, practice, and the possibility of buying a new clutch about 3 or 4 months down the road. lol |
| Posted by: Rayp Nov 27 2003, 03:36 PM |
| I'm pretty good at teaching stick... One of the first thing i teach them is to not stall the engine, the second is to not let the clutch slip more than needed. The last things is to shift faster . |
| Posted by: TyPe-R Nov 27 2003, 05:44 PM |
i just tell em the basics, and then, "as long as you give it gas, you won't stall out. so don't worry about peeling out, at least you didnt stall." but i work on gas and clutch balance as well  i had difficulty when i first learned, i wasnt quite mature enough in the head at 13 O_O...but i got the hang of it in about a month. yeah i did the same as indy, just driving around on the domestic streets until i was old enough for my permit and then i drove around anywhere with someone over 25 in the car. |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 12 2004, 01:06 PM |
| Well theres 5 pages to read, and i dont want to read it all ( i tried, a majority of it look like chatting lol) Heel-toe is more then just keeping your revs up, its more of a precise technique then that. :Fixed: Im making this easier to understand and explaining more (as i understand more now too) First things first. A heel-toe is simply the fastest and most complicated way to downshift while braking. Its much smoother, keeps you in your power band longer, and does it all in one move- rather then breaking it down into seperate steps (Saves time- good for racing) ___ Start by getting on the brakes with your right toes- If your in gear what do you notice? Your rpms will fall, and theyll fall fast. While still braking- Push in the clutch with your left foot Now you need to do two things at once, and this is the "complicated" part. Move the stick to the next gear down- and while your doing that twist your right foot so you can press the gas with your heel while leaving your toes on the brakes (you should now have all 3 pedals pushed in). One youve raised the revs (more on this later) Release the gas and the clutch together- If you need to keep braking, heel-toe again into the next lowest gear. ____ The complicated part is raising the revs- you need to properly rev match. Ever down shift normally- and your rpms rise dramaticly? You need to try to raise your rpms as much as they would have as though you slowly released the clutch. I suggest learning to double clutch while downshifting, so you have a good diea of how to rev match properly. |
| Posted by: AETRAN86 Sep 9 2004, 11:07 AM |
| i agree with the above post, but make sure not to just heel and toe before learning how to drive properly braking is important so heel and toe with an unexpierienced driver can be a bad thing, I would suggest going to an autox "auto crossing for those who dont know" they will teach you great driving techniques then you hone your skills. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 9 2004, 11:43 AM |
| .is.. that.. your blacktop 20v? it looks so oddly familiar (becuase of that triangle bar) orrr did you just find it off line? |
| Posted by: AETRAN86 Sep 9 2004, 04:58 PM |
| I found it on the net, that cusco triangle bar is nice, and those velocity stacks make me druel. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 9 2004, 07:14 PM |
| And here i was just staring at that sexy 20v black top bit of a waste of money USUALLY, but if it can be found for the right price no point in not gettin it |
| Posted by: case Sep 10 2004, 01:58 AM |
| lol, i thought that was my friend's engine bay at first, but his car is white. |
| Posted by: AETRAN86 Sep 10 2004, 08:27 AM | ||
I disagree, its just people charge more for them here since they are rare, i can get one for $850 shipped just need a standalone system, thats not bad considering all silver tops usually go for $700. for 150 bucks you get 20+ more WHP than the ST |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 10 2004, 11:11 AM |
| Thats also in fairly stock format the silvertop uses afm and the blacktop uses map. If installed pretty much the same- their hp numbers should actualyl be pretty close. the black top will make more horses if only lightly tuned- but not much. I could pick up a full silveetop engine with harness and ecu for aron 800 bucks. less if i go without the ecu. The after market ecu id want to use has whats needed to use map as well- instead of afm freing up some horsepower. The black top does have higher compression on the other hand, but with how id tune them either way id end up increasing the compression on either engine. Anyways- we got into this in the other topic and in further detail so i wont cover it all here- for me and my sues the silver top is a better choice. But agreed- depending on the price you get the black top for, for minor moding- the black top is better. |
| Posted by: driftFC35 Sep 21 2004, 03:20 PM |
| Hi everybody *Hi Dr. Nick* Alright, my personal opinion here is that Sideways got it right (big surprise ha). First, I have a question for Sideways or Case:Do you think that it is necessary to Double Clutch while in your downshift (I still do it, but do you think it is necessary with syncros n' stuff? Now onto the topic of teaching the heal-toe (or more how to get the right "blip" of the RPMs): The way I learned to match my revs was to first forget the breaking. 1. (when you know that you are ,say, comming to a stop sign and in third gear) clutch in and bring the shifter to neutral. 2. Engadge the clutch again and bring the shifter to second. 3. With the clutch still in blip the throtle to where you feel the RPMs will be at that speed when you disengage in second gear. 4. Release the clutch. 5. Now start your breaking (your at a stop sign rmember?) Now, at first you are still going to feel either the engine starting to slow the car down, or the car learching a little. This is due to the RPMs either being too low or too high. But you've got the basic principles down. Now it's all about becoming one with the car and knowing the precise touch of the gas. Once I started to heal-toe, it only took about two nights of really trying it to get the blip right again. Course, I had been matching my revs for a couple of years. rXyan, "Happy practicing." |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 21 2004, 10:30 PM |
| First: hell nope. Synchros will last a long ass time, so its not really "needed" by any means. if yo uwanna show off a bit, or just have a smoother transition while downshifting- then you double clutch. Now for what your saying.. i dont get it. Was that to double clutch? To double clutch you should: Push the clutch in Go to neutral Release the clutch rev match here Clutch in Next gear down (if you started in 3rd go to 2nd) clutch out. If you do it right you can do it as fast as a normal downshift- itll be smoooother, and as a "perk" youll be nicer on your tranny (not needed though). ____ If you dont know what rev matching is il ltry and explain it here.. made up numbers of course- itll be different for any car. Say your in 3rd going 40 mph at 4000 rpms, and want to go to 2nd In order to go 2nd at 40 mph your revs need to be 6000 however. rev matching- is bringing the engines rpms up to the right range- for that speed, and that gear. Daily driving and knowing how fast your car can go in this gear at this engine speed is the best way to know how high to rev match. |
| Posted by: case Sep 21 2004, 10:43 PM |
| nah, not necessary to double clutch at all. |
| Posted by: driftFC35 Sep 23 2004, 01:43 PM |
| I know exactly what double clutching is (I said in my post I do it all the time), and I know how to rev-match (I said it in my post). I was simply giveing some advise to some of the beginers on how to learn how to begin to feel the car when learning to rev-match. I just think personally that was a much easier way for me to go, rather than just jumping right into heal-toe. It made the transition into heal-toeing much easier (and probalby much safer). |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 23 2004, 02:11 PM |
| Agreed- learn to rev match before you heel-toe. Rev match is a big part of heel toe so knowing how to do it before hand would help big time |
| Posted by: Batmanbeyon Oct 15 2004, 03:49 AM |
| !While still braking- Push in the clutch with your left foot Now you need to do two things at once, and this is the "complicated" part. Move the stick to the next gear down- and while your doing that twist your right foot so you can press the gas with your heel while leaving your toes on the brakes (you should now have all 3 pedals pushed in).! you should explain it better so people don't downshift before they rev. so here are the steps hoppe this helps. Here is a step-by-step guide on how to heel-and-toe downshift. It will explain how to shift from fourth gear to third gear, though the technique will work for any downshift. 1. Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.  2. Push in the clutch with your left foot.  3. This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. The pedal design on some cars makes this easier to do than on others. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.   4. Move the shifter to third gear.  5. Release the clutch with your left foot.  The trickiest part is getting the correct amount of rpms to match the new gear. If you blip the throttle too much, the engine has too much speed compared to the wheels and is forced to drop down to the wheel speed when you let out the clutch. If you don't blip the throttle enough, the engine rpms are forced to rise up. Either way, you know you didn't do it right as the car will jerk a little. You'll also know it when you did it right. A proper heel-and-toe downshift is so smooth and so satisfying that, once done correctly, you'll find yourself using the technique all the time. The great thing is that you don't have to be a racecar driver or be on a racetrack to use it. Additionally, using the heel-and-toe downshift technique on the street can improve safety. In certain emergency situations, you might be required to brake heavily and then accelerate quickly. By heel-and-toe downshifting, your car will be in the best gear to achieve maximum acceleration. and do NOT go around the corner with the clutch pushed in, the engine revs will drop to idle speed. |
| Posted by: Batmanbeyon Oct 15 2004, 03:51 AM |
o man you here also case lol what's up it's drifterX from the rx forums.  |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Oct 15 2004, 06:48 AM | ||
Whoa, thats a focus interior, or atleast it looks like my moms. |
| Posted by: case Oct 15 2004, 12:13 PM | ||
whassup |
| Posted by: Batmanbeyon Oct 15 2004, 02:44 PM |
not much i like the pic of the cops stopping you lol and i think that is a focus but the heel toe works on any car.  |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Oct 16 2004, 11:17 PM | ||
Yea, its the focus.   Me fake heel/toe'ing my parents focus (I have size 13 shoes, so I dont heel/toe, I toe/toe, use left side of my foot to apply brakes, right side of my foot to apply throttle)  |
| Posted by: Iceman Oct 17 2004, 04:30 PM |
| Ok looks like i'm gonna have to try this soon, now that I can match rev's. Tell ya what though, it makes a lot more sense after watching a Best Motoring video. |
| Posted by: AJS13 Oct 18 2004, 10:46 PM | ||
Dont you just hate big feet like that, I have the same size. I find that I have to watch the shoes I wear while driving, I even had to remove this little foot rest that was next to the clutch pedel, the first time I drove it with the manual in it as my shoe would catch on it. I find big feet make it hard to left foot brake aswell, most cars wont allow it as I end up pressing the clutch and brake at the same time. |
| Posted by: But she looked 18 officer Oct 19 2004, 01:50 AM |
 |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 19 2004, 02:32 AM |
| the order seems weird... im on the clutch before im over the gas... |
| Posted by: AETRAN86 Oct 19 2004, 08:57 AM |
| Its just a pictoral, it doesnt press the gas until after the clutch is pressed, also I have size 13 shoes too, monster feet suck to heel and toe with,lol. |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 19 2004, 06:35 PM |
| Tempted to just delete the last few posts haha.. and you guys get on ME for spam sometiems.. geez. |
| Posted by: RX-7_FC_DrIfteR Oct 25 2004, 01:25 PM |
| Just look at attached |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 25 2004, 01:36 PM |
| such a funny gif, been posted before... i never did like the sequence, i dont like putting my heel over the gas then getting on the clutch then getting on the gas... i clutch, gas, and downshift all at once pretty much.. just see my avatar |
| Posted by: APEXi Oct 28 2004, 02:34 PM |
| you only do the heel and toe when entering a corner...but before the corner...you downshift from higher gears to lower gears...by stepping on the brake then clutch and gas...while downshifting...that'll slow you down but it'll raise your rpm...and after the corner you should gain more speed after the corner.......ONLY WORKS FOR MANUAL CARS...WILL NOT WORK FOR AUTOMATIC you can do the heel and toe more than once before entering a corner...depending on how fast you're going |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 28 2004, 04:43 PM |
| do a heel toe whenever your braking hard |
| Posted by: AJS13 Oct 28 2004, 08:25 PM |
| I do heel toe for all braking. |
| Posted by: driftFC35 Nov 2 2004, 06:13 PM | ||
For the most part I do also, unless I'm feelin real lazy. But even then it has become such second nature to me that I do it without thinking. On a side note... I had to use my dad's second car for a while there (Ford SHO....fast as F*uck btw) while I was wating for two new door handles for my FC (but that's a story for another time) and heal toeing was very difficult with it. The pedels were setup kind of awkward. Don't know if that is the case with all American cars....could someone confirm/deny this? rXyan, "So good to have the FC back baby!!!" |
| Posted by: sideways Nov 2 2004, 07:24 PM |
| Sho them ricers whos boss! |
| Posted by: driftFC35 Nov 3 2004, 09:52 AM | ||
haha....I actually got to the one night on my way to a hockey game. This stupid kid in a RICED out neon was beside me at a light. My first thought was to not even waste the gas. So it turs green, and this kid just starts winding out first. I'm in second already and directly on his bumper...at this point I think to myself, 'what the hey' so I tromp on it and I'm gone. Next light he starts reving his engine (kinda like saying I got a running start I guess  ). So this time I just gunn it rippin tire through second and basically never see him again. The best part is, that kid was probably so dumb that he had no idea what I was packin under the hood (not to mention my dad has done some mods to it too), and he was probably dumbfounded by the fact that an old Tarus just smoked him.Sorry to get off topic. |
| Posted by: pat86 Nov 15 2004, 06:08 PM |
| Do professionals raise their brake pad higher than the accel to allow easier heel and toe ? If so what do you call that ? |
| Posted by: Grip King Mar 7 2005, 09:29 PM |
| you heel toe to rev match to down shift to a lower gear not when doing high speed cornering u wanna be in your power band you have more control with steering u heel toe before you enter the corner as you would brake for a corner that is how hard and long u would hold the brakes it adjust teh speed of your car as well u heel toe to slow down and keep the revs up while u enter the corner if u heel toe to lock your rear u let your revs drop lower to break the back useing this technique is hard to initiate a drift i would recomend the scandanavian flick since the car has power assuming its a bmw or something but the new bmw's and benz's have tcs so when teh tires slide the abs kicks in autmatically good luck dont crash into curbs |
| Posted by: RakeRon Mar 7 2005, 09:38 PM | ||
I see you ph34r grammer... that or oxygen. |
| Posted by: Batmanbeyon Mar 7 2005, 09:52 PM |
| you have to be careful because if you come into the turn and start to heal toe while turning you could do a clutch kick by accident and spin your car or loose all traction and just slide sideways because your entered the turn to fast and wont be able to recover before you run out of room. |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Mar 7 2005, 09:52 PM | ||||
i totally agree i have no idea what he was saying without periods or commas its super hard to read anything when its all written like this perhaps he should invest in see jane run or a book like that to learn the basics of sentence structure maybe then we can read what he types another idea is that maybe his shift period and comma keys are missing on his keyboard |
| Posted by: Batmanbeyon Mar 8 2005, 01:46 AM |
 (flohtingPoint) way to stay on topic. |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 8 2005, 02:33 AM |
Ya hes good at that.. im such a bad mod  haha |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Mar 8 2005, 02:53 AM | ||
lol, read the first page, its about dying hair =P Pff, lax mod > nazi mod |
| Posted by: Firthy-EJ9 Mar 8 2005, 07:31 AM |
| U shouldnt be heel n toein thru corner!!!! Before! |
| Posted by: TRD-hachi-roku Mar 8 2005, 05:06 PM |
| heal toe, just a way brake, not any special godly drift technique...you heal toe to slow down, shift to lower gear while keeping revs up, hence why you blip the throttle, as with most braking, you do it before entering a corner |
| Posted by: Grip King Mar 8 2005, 06:46 PM |
| apologies english isnt good |
| Posted by: KeisukeR Mar 22 2005, 01:29 AM |
| Heel and Toe is difficult... |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 20 2005, 02:11 PM |
| To the person who said you couldn't do it in an auto, I beg to differ. XD I can rev-match my auto while it's in manual mode (which simply means that it won't change gears until redline if it's in 1, 2 or 3), and have done so on many occasions. You don't need to most of the time (hell, you could forego the heel-toe and just do it with two feet), but you can. For an auto it's: 1.) Brake 2.) Blip throttle while sliding shifter down Prevents sudden jerks, which as we all know can have some serious side effects if turning. And in my car, blipping the throttle on an upshift also covers up some jerkiness... dunno if it's like that with all autos, though. It's why I don't floor it through first--so I have a little throttle left to do a smooth gear-change. But today I was out in my dad's Mercury Capri (FF, manual, turbo Miata engine) just messing around... I came up to this one left turn that leads into a right S-turn, knowing I had to slow down quickly from 50 to about 30... so I tried to heel-toe it. Braked, flipped my foot over onto the gas, hit it while clutching in and shifting down, then let out the clutch as quickly as I could and bam! I did it. ^-^ It wasn't perfect, but it was damn close. Felt really cool to do it, too. When you can get it perfect, you could technically downshift in the middle of a turn since there would be no drivetrain shock. But I'm a long ways from perfecting this particular move. ^-^; And on a somewhat unrelated note, flooring a turbo FF car through a first-second gearshift uphill causes smokey tires. XD I think I freaked the crap out of the guys coming the other way. But it's so fun to blast through gears in that car... yeah... I'll shut up now... |
| Posted by: zerocool_designs Apr 20 2005, 04:21 PM | ||
wouldn't that be havoc for an automatic transmission, like a neutral drop? |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 20 2005, 07:30 PM |
| Perhaps. I did a neutral drop from high revs in second gear once... stalled the engine... yeah... never did it again... It's matching revs... The difference comes in with the fact that there's no clutch to let out, so the tranny's still being spun up as it's shifting... yeah. I guess that may be a problem. Again, it usually isn't something you'd have to do, anyway. With an auto you don't worry about the engine stalling, you worry about how much torque you can get... both acceleration and deceleration (engine braking). The few times I've done it, it was to regain engine braking on a steep slope. So no, it isn't a necessary thing to do at all. But what I am saying is that you can do it. |
| Posted by: sideways Apr 20 2005, 09:02 PM |
| Thats why u keep it in D and just drive.. |
| Posted by: Nomake Wan Apr 21 2005, 01:36 AM | ||
Except that it's finicky on my car. D is wonderful for normal driving, and it's great for straight-line acceleration when you're passing somebody (flooring it quickly in D engages "Power Mode," which changes the gear maps to get the most power out of each gear, staying in each until redline), but on a steep downhill slope it gets kinda scary. There's no engine braking at all. Negative, in fact; being in D with your foot off of the gas on an incline is like being in neutral only with power added. You get more control over the power by being in a numbered gear in manual mode. There's also no delay to the power being applied--flooring it in D causes a momentary delay as the computers make the necessary changes, only afterwards applying full power. D was designed with average highway/city driving in mind, creating maximum fuel efficiency while at the same time giving a normal driver the ability to rev up quickly for a pass. D was not designed for taking tight turns downhill. And on an uphill incline, it's absolutely horrid; there are only three throttle positions available: steady (usually isn't enough to keep speed from dropping to around 20 MPH), 3k (causes slow acceleration, but fairly useless), and Power (the full-rev, with delay, as mentioned before). There are only two things that I really can't stand about my automatic, and those are the uphill lack of throttle control and the inherent delay with Power Mode. ...both of which disappear when using the numbered gear settings. By telling the transmission that you essentially don't need its help, there's no delay whatsoever and the throttle response is smooth and immediate. There's also the added bonus of engine braking. Don't get me wrong; under every normal condition, I drive in D. However, there are two roads here that are particularly steep and winding, both of which being shortcuts to places I often go (one's to cross the valley without taking a bunch of turns and stops, and the other's to get downtown without going through traffic). On these two roads, I just don't trust the automatic transmission's judgement. |
| Posted by: hatchi-roku1984 Apr 26 2005, 07:46 AM |
| i just say forget the heel and toe, i just downshift b4 the corner and apply a lil brake then as u enter the turn let off the gas and at the end of the turn accelerate |
| Posted by: sideways Apr 26 2005, 02:48 PM |
| Take that perfectly loaded suspension |
| Posted by: kanecain Apr 26 2005, 05:33 PM |
| Heres how I double clutch and Heel and Toe. I own a '98 3000GT and a '92 Nissan Maxima SE. Both are a grand to drive (especially my Max; my GTO is a giant brick). Double Clutching (kind useless these days unless you're driving a semi) Press clutch in Put in neutral Release clutch Press clutch in again (hence the term double clutching) Upshift to higher gear Release clutch Give gas. Heel and Toe (rev-matching) Press clutch in Apply pressure to brake petal + Blip the gas petal to a RPM 1000 to 2000 higher than current Downshift to lower gear Release clutch. All that done extremely fast. Too many RPM = too bad and too little RPM is worse. When done right, the shift should be smooth as butter. |
| Posted by: KunPHYooz3D Apr 27 2005, 02:44 PM |
| your description of heel toe... ehh you can't clutch and gas at the same time... idunno i may be wrong ps: we are going  |
| Posted by: sabishii Apr 27 2005, 03:07 PM | ||
Yes you can... that's how you heel-toe... and how you rev-match even if you don't heel-toe.
Well, heel-toe is the same thing as downshifting, just that it matches the revs quicker. |
| Posted by: sideways Apr 27 2005, 03:22 PM |
| U can clutch and brake at the same time- brakes have nothing to do with the clutch. Clutch goes in, transmission gets disconnected from the engine, all thats going to happen when you brake is youll slow down. However you dont HAVE to have the clutch in first, i for example brake then clutch in. If im not mistaken this helps slightly by using a little engine brakine as well as the brakes themself to help brake. Its not the rev-matching is faster to downshift then plain old downshifting, its just "smoother". Even if it -was- fastet downshifting with heel-toe, thered be no gain, your braking. |
| Posted by: sabishii Apr 27 2005, 03:40 PM |
| Heel-toe braking, I meant, sorry. It's faster than braking and then separately downshifting w/rev-match. |
| Posted by: vhsfootball_82 Apr 27 2005, 04:08 PM | ||
yeah it certainly is...........cuz if u brake and then downshift seperately, u might have lost some power and might go below ur powerband........and then need to gain that power back up again........im still trying to learn heel and toe.....and i hate it when i brake too much.......lol........still learning..... |
| Posted by: sideways Apr 28 2005, 03:13 PM |
| You might go below your powerband? Did i miss something?.. Unless your wheels are slipping your revs will be tied with the gear+speed your going, you can go below your powerband unless you braked too much. Besides, your braking- u dont -need- to be high in the powerband. You can brake and downshift at the same time.. while your braking with ur right foot, clutch in- go down a gear.. clutch out- and thew hole time you never took your foot off the brakes. The point of heel-toe is keeping things "smooth". If you downshift normaly you may cause a jolt in the car, moving weight in a place you didnt want or intend for it to go, this can cause you to make minor corrections in a corner. granted theyre minor- its an "every bit helps" thing, and considering how easy it is to heel-toe, theres no point in not doing it. Smoothness |
| Posted by: takahiro1985 Jun 8 2005, 12:29 PM |
| ah. People little auto knowledge. What Toe-heel shifting does is matching your engine speed with your tranny speed. It saves your clutch from having to match speeds. It also keeps you from suddenly slowing down when you have to shift when the clutch engages and shoves your engine speed thru the roof(can some one say needing a new clutch?) Double clutching shifting will give time for the eninge to slow down when shifting to the next gear. It can save the clutch and keep it from heating up. Heat is very bad for a clutch. If you go below your powerband when doing some form of drifting, you might grip and that is not good. Plus with the engine speed you control how much your rear end slips out and your oversteer. |
| Posted by: Ben Jun 8 2005, 06:16 PM | ||
Are you f**king serious? I'm assuming you left long ago... But you're a moron. |
| Posted by: Cubits Jun 9 2005, 06:15 AM |
| Why is there seven pages of this? What exactly is the relationship between drifting (sliding car arse about), and a quick downshift? The topic is nonsensical. Heel-toe good, keeps car steady and allows quick downshifts. Drifting good, err.. tyre dealers will love you long time. Fin. |
| Posted by: sideways Jun 10 2005, 10:55 PM |
| Welcome to idw |
| Posted by: deztructo Jun 30 2005, 02:33 AM |
| *inserts my 10c here* There are many reasons why you can heel and toe. For road use, when you down shift, you need to get the revvs up to match the higher gearbox speed. matching the revs perfectly (practice practice) will allow you to dump the clutch and make for a smooth and quicker change, PLUS you place less wear and tear on your clutch thus extending the life of it. and for raceing, its the same, where on the road you want to be dead smooth for comfort, on the track, being smooth should be 2nd nature, so again, heel and toe (among other things) is another technique that wont waste speed and grip due to roughness. and with a high tuned engine, its amazeing how quickly you can tear a clutch plate up buy screwing up ya gearchanges. heel and toe for show 'N' go just dont get upset when your fuel economy goes up the shit on carburettored cars (Y) now if only other ppl i race would learn that dangerous pychos |
| Posted by: nubbles Jul 3 2005, 03:15 AM |
| hey long time reader first time poster i thought i would just add my 2cents on the topic, as i heel n toe in my car as snyrcos dont work 3rd - 2nd ;p all the how 2s ive read in the topic r rite but 1 thing when u blip the throttle. when ur shift down stop the stick in netural, release the clutch, blip the throttle, clutch in, select gear, then clutch out and accel or wat not. if this isnt done and clutch is left in when blipin, all ur doin is raisin rpm on the engine alone when u should b speedin up the gearbox as well. i love heel and toe, heaps of engine brakes, slowin down quicker, late brakin and bootin in2 corners ;p |
| Posted by: sideways Jul 3 2005, 03:49 AM |
| Not directly the point of a heel-toe (in a racing sense at least). Thats the point of a double clutch, or the method you pointed out, to take the lod of the synchros. The wheels are still spinning ur dif which is still spinning the driveshaft which is still connected to the tranny. Rev matching matches the rpms to the next gear depending on your speed, so your clutch (Drivetrain-whatever) doesnt have to. All about being "smooth". If you time the gear selection properly instead of forcing it, theres really little load on your synchros anyways. Theres a reason you can shift without a clutch and not grind your gears |
| Posted by: nubbles Jul 3 2005, 04:27 AM |
| i thought the whole point of heel and toe, is so that u can double clutch while brakin. oh well mayb not. i just dont understand wat blipin the gas with the clutch in would gain |
| Posted by: sideways Jul 3 2005, 01:52 PM |
| Try down shifting normally, just selecting the next gear down, and letting the clutch out. Granted if you know what youre doing, it can be pretty smooth- but usually you can still feel the car lurch forward a little. This type of slowing down is like unbalanced braking (rear wheels slowing down more then the front wheels- lift off oversteer is a good example of this). When entering a corner, this can cause an unwanted weight shift- which may or may cause you to make minor corrections through a corner- granted the difference is small, the effect will be noticable. a quick hel-toe when done right can keep the gear change (for lack of better words) butter smooth. Youll know when its been done right because you wouldnt have felt the gear change at all. |
| Posted by: nubbles Jul 3 2005, 04:14 PM |
| mayb i would need 2 try that style in a car with workin synrcos, as i need 2 match revs in mine ;p if i didnt it would b rough and harsh, if it went in2 the gear that is haha |
| Posted by: sideways Jul 3 2005, 06:24 PM |
| haha double clutchign a heel-toe is perfectly fine if u dont mind the extra step in the process. Most people dont bother, since not many want to race in a broken car |
| Posted by: nubbles Jul 4 2005, 12:59 AM |
| hahaha well i wont say i race my car, its a piece of sh*t, i just like 2 take corners as fast as possible ;p but even when im hurtin my dad modified 200sx i double clutch/hell-toe just to 2 b nice 2 the syncros haha as its a stock gearbox. |
| Posted by: Zilious Jul 4 2005, 01:09 AM |
Hehe my 200sx is from germany actually I bought it about 3 weeks ago as I was there visiting my german friends and drove back home... just 2300-2500km in 30hrs  Somewere near Uppsala (in Sweden) there was awsome quiet road to race against time and to test newly bought vehicle // Zil |
| Posted by: nubbles Jul 4 2005, 01:35 AM |
| haha sick a s13 200sx (180sx here in oz ;p) that wat ill b buyin very soon. my dads is a s14a 200sx, its a weapon, cant wait 4 internals 2 get done |
| Posted by: Nakzters Aug 5 2005, 04:20 AM |
| heel and toe.... hmmm... from my knowledge.... you use heel and toe if you wanna down shift from a high gear down to a low gear. ex. 4th to 2nd gear, with this techniqe you can control the car better than just down shifting... also theres another heel and toe techniqe that helps you brake fast without getting out of control for like emergency cases.. like if you need to sto right away and your going really fast... just brake by toe on breaks and heel on gas at the same time press down... so that you dont lose much power on the engine and also so that you dont get out of control... |
| Posted by: deztructo Sep 13 2005, 03:59 AM |
| Doubble clutching is only used these days on old crash gearboxes in trucks ect.... the point of it is, that the engine is big and heavy and talkes a while too loose revvs, and the same as the clutch size and input shaft, so in the time it takes to select the next gear and the gears that are stubborn to engage requires matching of the input gears and the out put gears, so a doubble clutch smooths that all out to avoid gear clashing (i have to do it on my tractor, otherwise the gears wont engage. as for cars, the requirement for doubble clutching is a myth, you only should use it if the gearbox has trouble engageing into gear. doing it in a perfectly capable car is a waste of time, look at the wear you may put on the syncro rings, and look at the wear on the clutch and the clutch thrust bearings, its like a double edged sword. and further more, if you want to be gentle on the clutch, dont hold the clutch in for extended periods, say for example, when you pull up at the lights, slot the gearbox in neutral and release the clutch, if you always hold it in, your just loadiung up the clutch thrust bearing putting wear on you clutch fork, springs, and thrust bearing. and half of clutch wear is this, not just the clutch plate. mechanical sympathy guys. |
| Posted by: RK_Maverick Oct 13 2005, 08:42 PM |
| Hi, I'm new in this forum =P Like sidewaysgts said, both, heel-and-toe and double clutch have the same purpose: make downshifts smooth to reduce in the last case, the load on the entire transmission and avoid excessive wear and tear on it's parts. Heel-and-toe doesn't have anything to do with controlling the car a little better, it's rather used to avoid engine-braking when downshifting, since stopping and slowing down the car is the job of the brakes and not the transmission's. As for double clutch is not required in cars, but it's recommended, I use it in two cases: 1. When in a hill climb I have to let the car slow down or the engine revs start to drop too low, the engine's gonna stall and I'm required to downshift. 2. When (in normal, day by day driving) I'm upshifting @ 3500 RPM but then I need the maximum power from the engine, may be to pass another car or something I have to downshift and set the car in the proper power band. |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 14 2005, 03:56 AM |
| Heel-toe does help control in some senses. example; the brakign effect you get when letting the clutch out smoothly for a downshfit causes the cars weight to lurch forward a bit, this can cause unwanted suspension movement and throw off the balance slightly you may want. the difference is small and would probably only cause you to make minor corrections through the corner, but corrections you wouldnt have had to made before none-the less (its easy to let the clutch out too fast, especialy when you mind is concentrating on other things at the same time) |
| Posted by: Cubits Oct 14 2005, 06:19 AM |
| It lets you brake harder when downshifting. If you don't heel-toe you increase the probility of locking the drive wheels, which means you either can't shift down while braking, or you have to brake less. Engine braking itself is no problem. The thread title is misleading, since heel-toe and drifting aren't actually related elements of driving. Its like having, "Drift a FR, parallel parking ---- HOW???". |
| Posted by: zAE86BoYz Nov 8 2005, 06:50 PM |
| Wow...I know i wont get those right why dont they have a drift school in california so they teach all these technique |
| Posted by: sideways Nov 10 2005, 08:05 PM |
| Take a normal racing class- apply beyond what you learn. The dynamics for drifting are simple if you can actually control a car at its limits. |
| Posted by: ing2ning Dec 6 2005, 06:29 AM |
| Figure out what it is with your brain first and then try it by yourself entering corners and slowing to stops. When it becomes second nature try to match the revs absolutely perfectly. After that, work on speed and consecutive downshifts. Try to apply the technique and put it into actual use as much as possible. Not to knock on sidewaysgts's avatar as I don't know if his foot is pivoted to such an extreme angle for the purpose of illustration, but generally in racing schools they teach you to reduce this angle as much as possible, to the point where you're barely even pivoting your right foot at all. This way provides the fastest heel and toe downshifts in open wheel race cars and can be applied to a good extent in street cars. The biggest point probably is to not give up. I have too many friends which have given up, some who barely do it correctly, and others who don't care enough to try. Heel and toe is still necessary in this age of synchros to keep downshifts smooth and to make the most out of engine braking. Rev matching is the most basic and important aspect of operating a manual transmission, anyone who tells you otherwise does not posess any noteworthy driving skill. |
| Posted by: sideways Jan 11 2006, 06:02 PM |
| Im know im beyond fasionably late in this response, but that last post, |
| Posted by: Jardim Feb 27 2006, 03:55 AM |
| lol, my dad said he used to HEEL TOE back in the 80s with his AE72 corolla?? what a tool |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 27 2006, 09:16 PM |
| The closer the pedals are together, the less actual "heel" you need to blip the throttle. Most race cars and/or sportscars have next to no gap between the brake and the throttle. To heel-toe in these cars, you simply brake with the ball of your foot, and blip the throttle with the side of your foot. I thought the ae86 had close enough pedals to get away with that style, but maybe not. It's been a good while since i last drove one. Sideways owns one, so i guess he'd have it right, no? muprhanation: If you really want to look after your gearbox and clutch, you should heel-toe in any car, regardless of the umm.. quality of the car. I learned to heel-toe and eventually clutchless shift in my old suzuki. It had a 0-60 time of like 13 seconds, but that didn't stop me trying to learn all i could from it. I wouldn't dare learn those things in anything better/more expensive! |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 27 2006, 11:33 PM |
| Theres some good space between the pedals, but wearing a size 12- i roll my foot to the side more then anything, ive only got a slight angle of my foot to make it comfortable. You can always just watch me in my avatar, hah |
| Posted by: TRD-hachi-roku Feb 28 2006, 11:18 PM |
| whats wrong with heal toeing a ae72??? heel toe isn't a godly technique that because you know how to do you are a faster driver...also it isn't about asking how to do it...or the motion itself...but the key element is timing... |
| Posted by: mrknownothing Apr 4 2006, 08:35 PM |
| yeah so uhhh dont most people just initiate the drift with the break, and continue it with good accelerator work? oh and since im new, can some1 help me with the lingo? blip? oil the gas? ff? fr? means nothing to me. sorry if im a pain thanks |
| Posted by: JDMMA70 Jul 18 2006, 06:50 AM |
| My shot at explaining it. You need to match the RPM with the Speed of the gear. It similar to a single clutch downshift except your braking. In a single clutch downshift lets say your in 3rd at 55mph and at 3200revs thats means in 2nd youll be around 5200 or 5300revs so the goal is to blip the throttle to around 5250revs and downshift at the same time. I practiced this first before I went to heel toe. Single Clutch Downshift 3rd at 55 Clutch In Start moving into 2nd gear Blip the throttle release clutch. This should all happen very smoothly. Now for heel toe same goal as before except we want to finish our braking before the corner entrance. Id suggest if your doing this in a parking to do it in a crusing gear like 3rd at 55. If you think your up to it to do it fast be my gest. Now depending on the car your in and how close the pedals are you may need to swing your heel over, use the side of your right foot, or put your foot in between the space of the brake and throttle. This may take some getting used to but it will become second nature. 3rd at 55 apply little braking just to get the car down to about 30 clutch in blip the throttle (dont worry about matching the RPM) while moving the the shifter into 2nd (we are still braking) release clutch you can get back on the throttle when you want. Old topic yes but i just gave my shot at a wrtie up Blip means you basically step on the throttle for a slpit second when you blip imagine the trottle is a bug you want to squash that bug. |
| Posted by: KyoTo Dec 29 2006, 07:20 AM |
| Heel-Toe....must Step Clutch & gas at the same time? with the right foot on both brake & gas pedals? |
| Posted by: Rose Gold Feb 9 2007, 10:38 PM |
| Heel and toeing Heel and toeing is not actually done with your heel and toe!, your foot is supposed to rotate between your ankle and middle toe, the outer edge of your right foot blips the throttle and the inner edge (the ball of your big toe) presses the brake. H&T is used to raise the engine revs briefly either aid gears engaging or to smooth the effect of the clutch being released, as a result of the matching of road speed and engine\gear speed. To get practicing, try braking only with the inside of your foot keeping the rest of your foot clear of the pedal, this will soon feel quite natural. then when at rest press the brake and rock your foot to blip the throttle, this is best done at traffic lights psyching out the guy next to you. once it feels natural try it on the go on a quiet road, doing both together is quite easy getting a consistent braking pressure and strong enough blip is the art. I heel and toe (and left foot brake) all the time of the road and in any car. in fact with a good gear box your can brake and change down clutchless with only one foot (the blipping easing the down changes under heavy braking). |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 10 2007, 12:50 AM |
| Welcome to 4 years ago. Heel and toe btw, can very well be done with your heel- and your toes It all depends on the driver preference and the layout of the pedals (check the avatar) |
| Posted by: Inygknok Jun 13 2007, 09:50 PM | ||
Thank God for your presence. Everyone else has said a few things correctly, but insert incorrect things among their explanations. You, on the other hand, kept the little that you said correct. About "double de-clutching".... ok, the short version of the explanation. In the old days, before synchronizers were integrated into all transmissions, it was impossible to downshift without pretty much destroying the gears in transmissions. Synchros were designed to be able to match the speed of the gears and allow you to downshift without having that much brainpower. Back in the day, you had to do that yourself. This was done by matching the speed of the crankshaft to the speed of the transmission and the speed at which the crankshaft would rotate at the lower selected speed. The whole heel and toe trick had nothing to do at all with drifting, since the drifting sport was integrated in the 90's, and heel and toe was integrated since before. The whole point of heel and toe is actually way simpler than what you guys are trying to explain. We have only 2 feet, so we can only play with 2 of the pedals at once. So how do we work all 3 pedals at the same time when we need to downshift to enter a slower corner? We heel and toe. That's it. It takes less time to do that than to brake first, then switch over to double de-clutch, blah blah blah, you get the point. Before people start jumping and screaming and feeling attacked, this was just a general thing. And I read someone saying this was only done for old, worn out transmissions............ No. Know why F1 cars and many racing cars have flappy, paddle shifters? Those damn things made this little hassle disappear. On really powerful cars, especially RWD ones, it's kind of a gamble to downshift during corners, which is why people normally downshift before. Not to mention, you don't need to even worry about a clutch pedal at any moment. And yes, sidewaysgts is correct. Some cars have pedals further apart, and some people have smaller feet, so they actually do this with their heel and toe. I have done my number of laps around local tracks so I know how it feels to try and get this when first starting. My advice to the guys who are just starting to learn, don't skip steps. If you only just started driving, then this is going to be a bit complicated for ya. Learn how to work regular upshifting and downshifting first, and do it properly (none of that stuff where the car revs up before engaging). Then practice double de-clutching, then 90 degree turns, and then you should be skilled enough to try out the heel and toe. You won't learn it in a day (Initial D IS just fiction you know, and Takumi did take a long time to learn things), but eventually, with practice and good fun, it'll all pay off |
| Posted by: Rallyist Oct 15 2007, 10:08 AM |
| I don't understand heel and toe timing.I never know this tecnique before watch initial d.Because I'm only watch wrc and formula 1 championships before and they don't need this.The tecnique is press gas and brake pedals some time during gear change but I'm not understant one part.Example Takumi and Kesiuke press gas and brake before gear change but some carachters do this after gear change.I'm not understand this.Please explain me. |
| Posted by: Fused Oct 15 2007, 01:05 PM |
| Heard of a heel-toe downshift? youre already braking but need a lower gear. you put the clutch in with your left, leave the toe of your right foot on the brake as it was, move the shifter into neutral, depress the gas with the heel of your right foot to bring the revs up to the right level to match the gear, then slot it in and let the clutch out. its good for the gearbox, and it doesnt shock-load anything which could cause loss of control. Why do WRC and formula 1 drivers not need it? their cars onboard control systems do it for them. You must drive a manual performance car to understand properly! |
| Posted by: Shale Oct 15 2007, 01:16 PM |
| In short, it's this equation: Rev sync + braking = heel-toe. Rev sync: When you shift down in a MANUAL ONLY, you will note the revs rise (eg: going from 3rd to 2nd). This puts a bit of stress on your drivetrain and engine, and as Fused said will shock-load if you do it quickly (and that’s no one’s friend). So think about this – if you raise your revs to the same point as they raise themselves when you downshift ‘normally’, you’re not dragging them up and putting unnecessary strain on your running gear. This is simply ‘blipping’ the throttle...jabbing the accelerator to bring the revs up a thousand or so rpm. Once you know your car, you will be able to sync every gear perfectly at any attainable speed. This is why you hear performance cars or race cars revving up before the go down a gear. Heel-toe: So you’ve got your rev sync down pat. And now you have to do it while braking. Left foot’s on the clutch and you’re shoving it down a gear...right foot’s braking (for a sharp corner perhaps), you can’t take it off to rev sync! Actually, yes you can. Reach across and bash the gas with your heel while you have your toes on the brake. Then bring your clutch back up while the revs are high, and booya...you slide into gear easily. You may note that newer tiptronic cars do this. My mother’s Odyssey of all things (LOL!) rev-syncs on its own when it’s in manual mode. She doesn’t use the ‘D’ any more, she shifts it across and uses the tiptronic...lol. It revs up when it’s put into a lower gear. And yep – as above, only way you will understand this fully is after you’ve had some experience in a manual performance car. (PS: Takumi and Keisuke do it as they’re about to go around a corner...note they are also braking and downshifting as they kick their heels around. And most WRC cars aren’t a traditional manual...hence not heel-toeing) |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 15 2007, 01:43 PM | ||
Just wanted to point out that you dont exactly have to have the shifter in neutral while doing this. Ill merge this tonight into the pinned topic on heel-toe after youve gotten your answers. |
| Posted by: Fused Oct 15 2007, 03:13 PM |
| This is true, but if you dont, you will wear the syncros faster, its just a good habit to get into. |
| Posted by: Rallyist Oct 17 2007, 10:41 PM | ||
Today's wrc and f1 cars not need clutch pedal for gear change isn't? They use heel and toe but not need to pres gas and brake some foot. And thanks for answers. |
| Posted by: sabishii Oct 17 2007, 10:52 PM | ||
That's only if you double-clutch, i.e. you actually shift into neutral by letting out the clutch in neutral, then blip, then clutch back in as you shift into the lower gear. If you have the clutch in the whole time (not double-clutching) then it doesn't matter when you blip, as long as it's before you get into gear obviously. Modern synchros barely wear and you'll also barely wear your clutch a bit more if you double-clutch. There is very negligible difference between double-clutching and not. |
| Posted by: Shale Oct 18 2007, 12:12 PM | ||
Pardon? You makey no sense. F1 cars are paddle-shift, rally cars are an entirely different auto system. Some rally cars are ‘dogbox’ manual – proper manual with straightcut gears, so no need for a clutch...but they HAVE to be at EXACTLY the right RPM to get into gear, so they need to rev-sync. Like above. These rally cars aren’t WRC though. As for heel-toe without hitting the brake and gas at the same time...I don’t know what tree your barking up but you may need to let us know Heel-toe = brake and gas at the same time. Brake and gas with the same foot = heel-toe. If not heel-toe in the traditional sense you are referring to, then what exactly do you mean? What have you observed that leads you to believe it’s heel-toe you witnessed?Track racers use it frequently. Maybe this is what you’ve seen >_> |
| Posted by: atlantian Mar 20 2008, 12:59 PM |
| well... to answer the first post... you KNOW you have to slow down entering a corner right? and when you exit the corner, you have little power if you are in the same gear as when you enter the corner, so you have to downshift so that you are in the higher(richer) section of your powerband... so toe heel is to combine these two things together... go play lfs or something, you learn a lot about racing from a decent sim |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Mar 20 2008, 01:18 PM | ||
You're over five years late in answering the first post. I'm sure he got the answer he was looking for by now. |
| Posted by: atlantian Mar 20 2008, 02:26 PM |
| hehe.. sorry... oh, btw, @ Shale, he ment throttle blimping on downshift, but i am unclear as to how equiped a formula car is when it comes to driving aids... *turns on LFS to check* EDIT: nope, there is auto-blimping on the formula cars and i think people double clutch in trans-am series endurance racing... |
| Posted by: Tofik Mar 21 2008, 02:11 AM |
| ^ That's blipping, you silly. |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 21 2008, 02:16 AM | ||
Lfs is imo a very angry game for racing physics |
| Posted by: Jardim Mar 21 2008, 03:42 AM |
| The clutch on formula cars in LFS are seriously made out of plastic.....You have to drive like a punk bi**h in order not to ruin it... |
| Posted by: atlantian Mar 21 2008, 08:03 AM |
| ^errrrrrm..... the forumla cars are so powerful that you need to just use the padle shifters, took me a while to realise that... try driving the bmw sauber with traditional...roflz you start the car up and get it going with the clutch, but once you are above... say...15 mph, you need to just rely on the padles, the throttle is so sensitive, that you must be like god foot to revmatch while shifting... |
| Posted by: Renesis_Rogue Aug 9 2008, 09:28 PM |
| hey Guys new to the board love the show... own the whole series... Semi-professional driver.... 2004 mazda rx8 six speed manual.. The purpose to heel toe downshifts is to A) Slow the car down as quickly as possible Downshift to stay in your powerbandC) Rev-Match to make the shift smooth Step 1 Brake HARD Step 2/3 Must be done instantaneously and without hesitation Clutch in swing your right heel to the gas and blip it until the revs match what they will be in the lower gear... step 4 release the clutch pedal step 5 accellerate. i would suggest rev matching your downshifts during daily driving IE getting off of on ramps... one of the main purposes of downshifting is also to engine brake... so when you get good, you'll have break pressure, + the engine braking to slow you down... + a whole lot of acceleration when you step on the gas again.!!! a great 3 bird one stone technique!!! Nice joining up guys... look forward to talking more. |
| Posted by: Jardim Aug 9 2008, 09:41 PM | ||
^ Yeah a guy that i know thats been doing AutoX since the 70's told me to rev match in daily driving too. I guess it can help.
HAHA i do it like as if it was 1986, using the shifter instead of the padles. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Aug 9 2008, 09:57 PM |
| Renesis Rogue--welcome to the boards, but this thread is sort of old and it has nine pages of people talking about how to heel-toe, so it wasn't really necessary to re-explain what we all already know how to do. |
| Posted by: shinn Aug 9 2008, 11:03 PM |
| I liked his explanation though. |
| Posted by: Renesis_Rogue Aug 10 2008, 08:51 PM |
| Thanks guys.. I appreciate it... srry bout the late post... what sections would you suggest frequenting to learn the most about peoples actual life techniques? |
| Posted by: Jardim Aug 14 2008, 02:08 AM | ||
If theres a thread for whatever your trying to explain and you have a better explanation, post it there. If there isn't then make a new thread. |
| Posted by: garrethking Aug 14 2008, 04:46 AM |
| So would it be possible to drift a front wheel drive car using these methods? Would it just spin out if you accelerate while sideways? |
| Posted by: Spaz Aug 14 2008, 09:07 AM | ||
No, you can't put a FWD into a "true" (4-wheel) drift and have it be controlled drift as well, as drifting requires the ability to keep the rear tires loose with some semblance of consistency. You can get the back end to loosen up if you turn hard enough, but it's not a true drift. The same thing can be accomplished with the e-brake. |
| Posted by: Meteor Aug 14 2008, 09:29 AM |
| No, you can't drift an FF with these methods. You can make one drag its tail around turns, but it's impossible to do D1 style drifts in an FF. And flooring it while sideways in an FF will only send you into the wall (remember, it's front wheel drive). However, you can use the heel-toe-downshift on any car. It won't let you drift an FF, but your downshifts will be smoother this way. |
| Posted by: GetMePower Sep 18 2008, 11:31 PM |
| There is a technique called left foot braking, and it's mainly for FF cars. As for FR heel-toe drifting, I'm pretty sure someone explained well already. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 19 2008, 05:31 PM | ||
Cant say i agree with this. An FF car can be set up to oversteer consistantly and predictably- But i will say this is not the same as oversteering with the throttle like you could in a rear wheel driven car Getmepower: Wtf is heel-toe drifting  |
| Posted by: GetMePower Sep 23 2008, 10:59 PM | ||
Oh, I meant to say heel-toe shifting while drifting. Sorry, I made that term short. |
| Posted by: Panda_86 Sep 24 2008, 07:56 PM |
| Its lame to enter this reply post here... too out of date... too late... but i got into interst here... So its true once you do your heel-and-toe, there's is a feel of the engine helping the vehicle to slow down right? I thought the purpose of heel-and -toe is to just allow you to enter the gear during the downshift seamlessly? and feel almost the same... not a single feel of the car jolting, just smoothly slowing down? So i was wrong... or maybe I am already doing it correctly... i tried heel-and-toe... the gear entered smoothly but yes, there's a slight slow-down to my speed (aside from trhat produced by my brakes) made by my engine... but its not the kind that Itsuki did in Initial D... geez... Anyway thanks! |
| Posted by: backalleyracer Sep 24 2008, 08:26 PM |
| search this thread for the answer |
| Posted by: Rotisserie Sep 28 2008, 11:03 PM |
| the only thing useful about H/T during drifts is it doesnt disturb the stability of the car. quite opposite of shift locking whereas, the shift is intended to disturb the stability. think of it as inducing a brake oversteer while you shift to keep the car stable in a drift turn. |
| Posted by: Cyrus430 Sep 29 2008, 09:21 AM |
| WHy has this thread not been closed? It's explained like 70 times... keep it pinned but close it so people will stop posting it over and over and over... |
| Posted by: Rotisserie Sep 30 2008, 09:20 PM |
| Well if this subject has been discussed ad nauseum, why not get the other forum moderators toghether and build a FAQ section where certain subjects can be condensed into useful infofor the users. This way, theres no need to have to re-ask the question. One thing most new ppl dont want to do is spend weeks reading several years worth of back-posts full of side conversations, personal biases, generalizations, and verbal fights. Even if you wanted to utilize the search function, after the umpteenth different answer, its easier just to ask since theres no FAQ. Till then, crying wont help and closing the thread down will just breed others threads seeking further clarification or wishing to add their $.02. I was the latter. 'Scuse me for posting.  |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Sep 30 2008, 10:19 PM | ||
Heel-toeing isn't very cut-and-dry when explaining, and usually one person's explanation might not be enough. |
| Posted by: Rotisserie Sep 30 2008, 10:42 PM |
| precisly why nagging to close the thread is silly and self-centered. there are many different points of view that prolly hasn't been covered in so few pages. meanwhile, other forums have pretty decent FAQs covering the basic theory and practice of Heel/Toe shifting, amongst other things. that'll at least set up a better reference point for further questions when they arise instead of revisiting the basics repeatedly due to the data being all over the place. heck, in my car, all the pedals are small, close to each other, and biased to the right. often, i find myself using my heel on the brakes and tapping the top of the gas pedal with the ball of my foot instead of the traditional way. the fact that i wear boots doesnt help the situation either. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Sep 30 2008, 11:48 PM |
| But the "nagging" wasn't done for nothing, it's because for whatever reason, there are people who come along and feel the need to bring up an older thread that has already been discussed time and time again, adding nothing new to the discussion and not answering any unanswered questions. |
| Posted by: Cyrus430 Oct 1 2008, 12:24 AM | ||
Really? Interesting opinion... THIS is why I move that it be closed. People wanna get their 2 cents in and revive a thread, when you're just over-watering a flower... .If you say there's more sites that provide BETTER tutorials or whatever, post the links, and leave it be... otherwise, well I think people get the jist of it by reading the beginning. |
| Posted by: sileighty of Usui Oct 7 2008, 04:52 PM |
| ^ I've read all the descriptions and whatnot but I'd like to double check that I am doing it right... I recently started trying to do heel/toe downshifts and I noticed that when I would go from 3rd to 2nd my revs would still be too low and I think it was because I held onto the clutch for too long.. but just to verify it should look something like this right? (assume 3rd gear) 1. right foot (toe) on brakes - begin slowing down 2. left foot depress the clutch 3. While clutch is being depressed slide the right foot over onto the gas and raise the revs up to match the lower gear ^ this is where I am confused.. as I'm revving up to the proper rpm in third gear do I then shift into 2nd as soon as I get into the right rpm range? then let off the clutch? I read where some people say to brake put the clutch in shift into the next gear and then rev up to the correct rpm before getting off the clutch just trying to clear things up so I can get this right |
| Posted by: sideways Oct 7 2008, 11:25 PM |
| "I read where some people say to brake put the clutch in shift into the next gear and then rev up to the correct rpm" It doesnt matter. If the clutch pedal is down, the transmission isnt engaged- so weather or not you have the next gear selected makes no difference. |
| Posted by: sileighty of Usui Oct 8 2008, 06:01 AM | ||
okay thanks that pretty much cleared everything up for me |
| Posted by: avraell Nov 23 2008, 10:58 AM | ||
lol. I learned stick with malfunctioning computer, so the engine wasn't mixing at proper ratios. I thought I was a failure at life, because it was never consistent and I would think I got it, and then slam the clutch the next time. I drove it around campus that way, fun times. I think at some point a cop considered stopping me, but then just busted out laughing. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 9 2009, 05:15 PM |
| I NEED HELP! I was practicing grip and down shifting at my local canyon when I notice a car behind me coming uphill INSANELY fast. At first I was scared it was a cop but the sirens never came on and it tailed me. So I pick up speed and the car is still on my ass! Well I didn't want to cause an accident so when I started pulling over to the right, the car just lane crosses at the same time and passes me. As if it that weren't bad enough to tell me what shitty driver I am, the car was a Honda SUV. I tried to keep up but couldn't and at one time almost understeered into the rail. Such a crappy feeling. My only explanation is that my downshifting was taking too long. What I was doing was smooth long brake, depress clutch shift to neutral, let go of clutch and brake, blip gas, push in clutch again and shift to correct gear, then foot off clutch and onto gas (all this before the turn). There's enough information here and on the web on how to heel and toe so I'm going to start practicing. My question is, doesn't blipping the gas while the clutch is down screw up the transmission? I was told pushing the gas while engaging the clutch is a big no no. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 9 2009, 05:58 PM | ||||
I'm no pro, but here's what I think of your situation: 1. You're going uphill, and more of your car's weight is resting on the rear wheels. I'd assume your car would be harder to rotate, whereas the Honda SUV, while much larger and less agile, might be either RWD or AWD (like if it were a Honda Pilot). 2. You're double-clutching, which really isn't necessary and uses up more time than a quick rev-match, especially when heel-toeing. 3. Perhaps you're shifting into too high of a gear. Depending on what mph and rpm you're at, a lower gear may be more appropriate, especially considering how peaky those Celica GT-S engines are. From what I remember, you need to keep their engines boiling, seeing how its peak torque (133 lb.-ft) occurs at 6800 rpm... pretty damn high. So maybe you're at too low of a gear to put enough torque through the wheels to keep your car rotating around curves.
It's not really a "no-no," at least not anymore of a no-no than shifting at redline. Blipping the throttle doesn't screw up the transmission; its negative impact is minimal to the point where you probably won't have to deal with it for a long time (if at all), unless you beat on your car regularly or if you suck at shifting. If you only blip the throttle to rev-match, then don't worry about it, your synchros also help out. But if you're at every red light revving with the clutch in, day in and day out, your clutch life might be shortened. But by throttle-blipping rather than just letting the clutch out, your clutch will last longer anyway. |
| Posted by: Meteor Feb 9 2009, 05:58 PM |
| I think you're supposed to blip the gas with the clutch pushed in. No, it won't neccessarily screw up your transmission. All this'll do is seperate the flywheel and transmission, increase the flywheel's RPMs, and then put them back together. Notice that whenver you downshift, the revs jump up? If you raise the flywheel's speed beforehand, the revs won't jump up so much, resulting in a smoother downshift. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 9 2009, 06:28 PM | ||||
All good and valid points points. As for the last one, yeah I'll usually drive in a higher gear to keep my rpms around 3k-4k because I heard anything above that will shorten your engine life as well.
Thanks for the info guys. =D |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 9 2009, 07:04 PM | ||
That's why then. I didn't really look for a dyno plot, but I'd imagine the GT-S's powerband isn't very flexible and is probably pretty pathetic at that rpm. I breezed through a few reviews in the past ten minutes, and most of them say you have to keep the engine above 5k rpm to have any actual performance, which makes sense given the peak torque (relatively low) at such a high rpm. Don't worry about going above 4k rpm, engines are made to do it (especially yours, co-engineered by Yamaha), as long as you don't do it all the time. If your car is a daily driver and you take it through the canyons once in a while, it's okay to hit redline. Just don't keep the needle there for silly amounts of time. |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 9 2009, 07:26 PM |
| Hell, I've bounced my engine off the 7.5k rev limiter a few times per month (autox) and it's perfectly fine. So don't get scared of blowing it up. Unless you've let it fall into disrepair, it'll handle 6k+ just fine on stock power when you need it. |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 10 2009, 03:33 AM |
| The celica motor is great, but its not unheard of to damage them easily from high rpms. Have fun with it- dont fear redline, espeically with the 2zz, but dont abuse it either. Are we talking about gmr? But anyways, a slow downshift probably isnt the culprit of being slow. More than likely itll be youre line and braking point- or lack there of. Seriously be careful up there Maybe you me and starion can go meet up there for some mild fun. Im down in california for awhile again. Id love to ride along with you and offer some advice as best i know how, but i promise if you do something stupid or overly reckless i will yell at you |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 10 2009, 07:54 AM | ||
Yeah, correct line is the best way to be fast. The last cruise I was on, I was easily whomping on an LGT in the twisties just based on the fact that I knew how to pick a good line. Every single straight he'd pull away, and every single set of corners I'd be right on his bumper. Once I got out in front after a gas break, he all but disappeared. I was running on badly-fading brake pads, shit tires, and a partially slipping clutch. His car was in perfect shape. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 10 2009, 11:01 AM | ||||||||
Yeah, the car really leaves much to be desired in lower rpms when it comes to performance. Around 5k is when it starts to pick up and hitting 6k is crazy, that rpm just shoots after that, that's why I get paranoid that I'll hit 6k and it'll be over 7800 before I know it. I try to go through canyons once a week but I've been going more lately. =P
Good to know, next time I see that Honda SUV........
TBC. GMR is too far from where I live, and it's scarier than TBC. I'll practice on GMR some day but I think TBC is good for me right now. My friends that have seen me drive say I have a good line (I usually try to stay within my own lane) but I think you're right about braking. I don't really know when to brake or how much to brake. Ha Ha, that sounds good. I'll have to wait until I get more money though. Plus I was supposed to meet up up Deeznuts over spring break for Mongolian BBQ but other issues arose. How long will you be in CA until? I'd love to see your 86, I've only seen one once in my life and even then I'm not sure it was an 86.
What's an LGT? |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 10 2009, 11:12 AM |
| ^ You gotta learn throttle control sometime. You'll find that by entering a corner in a lower gear with the engine at a higher rpm, you can rotate the car easier, and there will be far less understeer. |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 10 2009, 01:29 PM | ||
Legacy GT. I should have mentioned that it was also a Spec-B. |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 10 2009, 03:25 PM |
| Just a week or two tops, im hoping. Ill be staying until ive finished a project of mine down here. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 10 2009, 05:32 PM | ||
Hmm, that's not much time. Well I just got a couple of paychecks from work so I definitely have the money now. Well I'm down to meet up with you, Starion, and Deeznuts if he feels like coming. My availability is Mon - Fri 11ish PM to 3 AM Sat & Sun Anytime |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 11 2009, 12:15 AM |
| Sounds good to me- Ill see what my availability is. Unfortunately my project is at someones house and im working on it whenever they allow- so I need to try to work meeting with you around that. Ill keep you updated if i get the time. |
| Posted by: djmisio85 Feb 11 2009, 05:00 AM |
| Why are we "batting around the bush", the only reason ToyotaFan84 lost to a honda SUV is because he doesnt have a clue how to drive..... It has nothing to do with heel and toeing.... If you don't rev your engine, your car won't go fast. Don't worry about what people say, that if you rev your engine high, it might break... The engine has a redline, so that you know how far you can push it. Obviously driving near the redline everyday, will be bad for any engine. Taking the "racing line", will help, but just learn to rev your engine FFS, otherwise your car won't go fast at all. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 15 2009, 03:21 AM | ||||
No one is batting around the bush, I openly admitted in my original post that I don't know how to drive. =P
But I have to say.... THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS! YOU GUYS ROCK!  I've tried a lower gear with higher RPMS + heel and toeing (still takes me more than a second but I got the movements down to where I don't have to think about it) and I'm definitely faster than before. I think it's time for anti sway bars because I don't like the slight roll I'm feeling. Better brakes wouldn't hurt either....  |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 15 2009, 09:13 AM | ||
Your heel-toeing will get smoother as you continue to do it. I remember teaching myself how to do it on my brother's Civic when I was in college (we lived in the same city) and mastered it (or at least got good enough at it) within a couple weeks and was able to do it on any other car (my roommate's Sentra SE-R or my friend's Prelude Type-SH). Don't rush into mods, especially this soon after introducing yourself to heel-toeing and cornering in the proper gear. Until you actually push your car closer to its limits in its current form, you won't fully appreciate or take advantage of whichever mods. Also, which tires are you using (and are they the OEMs)? And how much tread life do they have left? |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 15 2009, 09:54 AM | ||
Ok, I'll hold off on mods, I owe my dad money any ways. When I bought the car each tire was a different one.  But now I have the Yokohama S drives (205/55R16), doubt those are OEMS but the rims are. I just did a tire rotation so the ones on the back now barely touch Lincoln's hair (3mm) and the ones I have in the front go past it almost touch his hair line (4mm). I got these tires back in May of last year. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 15 2009, 11:03 AM | ||
I just looked it up right now, the OEM tires are Yokohama Advan A680s, size 205/50R16, which cost $126 per tire on www.tirerack.com. The tires you're using are actually a little cheaper at $95, though it's rated as an "ultra high performance summer tire" (as opposed to the OEM tires being "high performance summer tires"). The Tire Rack's online surveys have owners ranking the S.Drives much higher than the A680s. Was there a particular reason why you went with a taller tire, whether it was you or your dad who picked the tires? |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 15 2009, 11:20 AM | ||
I picked the tires myself, my dad doesn't get to make any more decisions regarding my car (long and messed up story). When I went to the tire shop they only had the 55s available and I really couldn't afford to wait for 50s because all four tires looked like they were going to burst, one had a big old crack along the side. I'm assuming the 50s are better since the car will be lower? |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 15 2009, 11:38 AM | ||
The ride height has little to do with it, and you wouldn't really notice it. It's the gearing that comes into play, since your car's gearing is mated to a specific tire height, and going up or down can throw it off, unless you know what you're doing. For example, in Evos, most quarter-mile runs end with us being right at the top of fourth gear, which tops out at 106-107 mph, given the car's factory gearing. However, as owners mod their cars further and are moving faster toward the end of the quarter, they will probably have the speed to trap higher than fourth gear normally goes, so it would necessitate a shift into fifth gear to exploit the extra mph for your trap speed, but shifting into fifth at that point would cause a moment of deceleration (since you're shifting again and letting off of the gas), which sucks since the shift occurs so close to the end of the run. Going with taller tires can allow owners a compromise, riding out fourth and exploiting some extra mph without needing to shift to fifth while keeping all of your velocity. Sounds like a good idea, right? Not always. First of all, your speedometer will be off... not drastically, but it's still something to consider. In your particular scenario, when your speedometer reads 60 mph, you're actually going 62.0 mph since your speedometer would be reading 3.4% too slow (calculated at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html). But more importantly, with a taller (and probably heavier) tire makes your engine do more work to keep the wheels spinning, which may be noticed when accelerating from a standstill or from much slower speeds. It's not a huge deal for cars with a lot of torque, but your car makes most of its twisting force very high in the rev range, so you might feel the sluggishness more than, say, a Mustang GT owner would with taller tires. Also, taller tires have the potential of flexing its sidewalls more (assuming we're talking about the same tires), which can be noticed during hard cornering. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 15 2009, 03:06 PM | ||
Mind = Blown  Where can I learn stuff like this? I go to Wikipedia, howstuffworks, and newcelica.org |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 15 2009, 04:18 PM | ||
Wikipedia is alright for learning specs, but not much beyond that, especially since random people can add stuff to an entry (though people who actually do know their stuff will usually correct it, as I have done in the past with various entries). Howstuffworks is good for learning the basics of how some things work, but very rarely does it get into things as deeply as you'd hope. For example, it tells you the basics of how LSDs work and the concept behind it, but it doesn't include more recently applications involving the evolution of such technology. Try autozine, I used to go there: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.html (their stuff is not 100% up-to-date, but it's good enough to have an understanding the technology used these days). A lot of the other stuff just comes from listening to people talk from experience. You can't really learn that from one website from one read. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Feb 15 2009, 04:48 PM | ||
THANKS A LOT! You're the man! |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Sep 7 2009, 06:31 AM |
| This is probably a really stupid question but I rather ask it than make a stupid mistake with my car. Is heel and toeing really the preferred method at higher RPMs? I can understand why it's useful in city driving at lower RPMs, keeps you in the appropriate gear, saves a lot of time and when done right it's very smooth. However, there's turn at a canyon I frequent where I'm having some issues. There's a high speed corner where I can exit at the top of third gear (literally near the redline) followed right after by a sharp left. I know from taking the high speed corner slowly that my best speed on the sharp left has me around the top of second. There's enough of a straightaway in between the two turns for me to brake and heel and toe, thus keep a smooth fast line. My problem is the brief moment when I hit neutral while heel and toeing. The tachometer no longer shows me my RPMs. Because I still feel like I'm going fast (not too fast for the turn) I'm unsure where the RPMs will be at if I go into 2nd although I want to be above 4k at the very least. My fear is I'll bypass the rev limiter in the downshift. So what I've done is continue braking in 3rd until I'm really low and go into 2nd. This is too slow and messes up my line as well as putting me under the range I'm going for. How can I tell where I'll be approximately when I do the downshift? I'm having trouble finding the right spot to land into 2nd. Also in this current situation, if I decided to just heel and toe into 2nd without hesitation, the blip would require me to push the throttle heavily for a brief second. Is the within the acceptable range of blipping the throttle? Sorry if things aren't clear, I'm having a lot of trouble trying to explain this in a concise manner. |
| Posted by: Spaz Sep 7 2009, 08:24 AM |
| How can you tell? Experiment. Get to where you should be in 2nd and shift up, see where you end up in 3rd. Then if you want to do it without looking at the tach, memorize what that RPM sounds like so you can do it by ear. Alternatively, if you can find out what the gear ratios are for your tranny, you can math it out. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Sep 7 2009, 08:59 AM | ||
I don't really get the complication in this scenario. You're only in neutral for a split second. Your tach does show you your rpms as they fall, since you disengaged from third gear. What rpm you should blip to is something that you should figure out within a try or two, though it's nothing that we can give you advice about since we don't drive your car or know its stock gearing. Even if you don't blip into the right rpm, when you downshift, the engine's rpms will go to where they should be, though it won't be smooth since you're not blipping it into the perfect spot, but it will be an indication of where it should be. There is no actual "acceptable range of blipping the throttle," within reason. You can blip the throttle to redline if going to a much lower gear from a much higher one, though of course you'll have to ask yourself if it's worth dropping down to that gear if you're in it for only a short time, or if it's too short to give you the acceleration and speed that you need in that situation. To elaborate on this, I'll give an example with my car since I'm familiar with it. The way my car is geared, second will top out right at 60 mph, maybe 61 or 62, by redline (7000 rpm). Hypothetically speaking, let's say that the proper entry speed into that corner is a little above 55 mph (approximately 6500 rpm in second gear, or 4500 in third). Second gear wouldn't be too bad of a choice since it's at an rpm where most of the hp is made, but I personally wouldn't choose it since I'd be too close to redline (or bouncing off of it) if I were to try to accelerate through the corner (and also out of it). I'm no expert, but I would rather be in third gear since at that rpm, it's still in the sweet spot (as peak torque hits at 3500 rpm), and I won't need to worry about wasting time shifting, plus I can continue to accelerate through the corner while being able to stomp on the gas at the exit. In second, I'd have to shift right at the exit. So first of all, figure out your car's powerband and where you'd be at in both gears and if it would make sense to be in one gear rather than the other. You can blip a throttle to as high as you want (assuming you're not going straight to redline). Is third gear too high to use in that corner? |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 7 2009, 05:54 PM |
| Not too much more to add than what has already been said. For those who use it, heel and toe is the preferred method of downshifting at any rpm for any speed. Keep in mind the only reason you do the "heel toe" part of a downshift is because its typicaly the fastest/easiest way to downshift smoothly. As for how to tell where youll be roughly when you downshift, experience. Its jut something you pick up on the more you do it, so keep trying, keep experimenting, and youll soon figure it out. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Sep 7 2009, 06:21 PM | ||||
Dude, if you ever attend a Socal meet I would love to try to run against you. I know I'll get my ass handed to me, but in all my topics asking for help your replies definitely imply you're a racer that pushes himself and his car to the limit. I'd love to see driving like that in person. I know if I upshift at the redline I'll land around 6000 RPMs in the next higher gear (which is where lift kicks in). I'm assuming from what you're telling me that downshifting at 6k will put me at the redline. I'll try downshifting at 4000 rpm on my way to work tomorrow morning and go from there.
The complication arises because I'm new to this type of driving, lack experience and understanding, so it's hard for me to explain myself. As far as my powerband is concerned.. Lift is from 6000-7800 RPM. At 4k is when torque starts to kick but you really feel it around 5k. When I drive through canyons I try to stay in lift the entire time (this canyon is really short so I'm not too worried about it). I can take the curve in 3rd but since it's less than 90 degrees I'd have to slow down to lower RPM.. 2nd gear is so much faster on this corner. Also I forgot to mention that this is is going up hill, so every bit of torque matters to me especially since I still have the same tires as last time. Taking this corner in second sets me up better for the next part of the course. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 7 2009, 09:16 PM |
| You and me should meet up again some time soon, with more 1 on 1 driving and some q and a, not just some demonstration. |
| Posted by: ToyotaFan84 Sep 7 2009, 09:41 PM | ||
Ha Ha, sounds like Takumi teaching Iketani how to drive. I'm down though as long as it's not near a midterm, just let me know when you're in town. I don't know how many questions I'd have at that moment since they come at different times. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Sep 8 2009, 11:10 AM | ||
If that's the case, then it seems like you just need to practice your heel-toe to do it more quickly. There's really no complication, go through the first corner in third, then in the straight, accelerate until before the corner, brush off some speed, drop into second, and drive. |
| Posted by: WRX DEMON Type R Sep 8 2009, 05:43 PM |
| I find it a little strange to recieve driving advice like this from. I've always found the best way to learn is more seat time and just building up experience. It's like learning to walk and then to run. |
| Posted by: djmisio85 Sep 8 2009, 06:13 PM | ||
Right on Demon. Apart from being told how to do something/ having a simple theory explained, and maybe seeing it once, after that I just went out to practice it and never looked back. Like heel and toe for example, my mate Luka showed me what heel and toeing was, once, (he couldnt even do it properly), but I just took what he showed me, tried it for myself, felt how the car was reacting, whether it was smooth or jerky... listened to the engine.... I think some people need to spend less time on forums discussing stuff like this, and more time actually driving their cars and using their brains.... Its not rocket science...its just driving Just my 2 cents |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 8 2009, 07:34 PM |
| Thats becase you dont like to think But you're right, experience easily one of the biggest factors, but theres nothing wrong with having proper knowledge to help guide your experience so you learn even faster and in the end (hopefully) better. |
| Posted by: WRX DEMON Type R Sep 8 2009, 08:12 PM |
| Heck, I've heard people talking about heel and toe this, and heel and toe that. I always assumed it was this big special thing that I never knew how to do. Turns out I've been doing a variation of it for a long time now. It was only after I spoke with DJmisio that I discovered this and the learned how to do the ACTUAL heel and toe - even then, it wasn't any 1 on 1 thing. It was mentioned during conversation and I tried it, and it worked better than what I've always been doing. So yeah, some guidance is nice. But only some. LOL, hilarious that I've unknowingly been doing heel and toe. Haha.. |
| Posted by: xsleepydrifterx Sep 8 2009, 11:33 PM |
| heel-toe isnt really all that hard as everyone says. the best way to learn honestly is to watch a video of it being done...i recommend tsuchiya, then get into your car with the car off, and get the footing down for doing it. over and over, then turn on the car put it in nuetral and repeat, then put the car into gear, find a nice OPEN place and try it. nothing but practice will make you better at it. goodluck. i do it for fun coming to a stop heel-toe through each gear, and before turns..the more you practice, the easier it becomes. its also easier with cars that have closer pedals. IE pedal setups with the gas bloser to the brake. the ae86 naturally has this so its easier. |
| Posted by: WRX DEMON Type R Sep 9 2009, 12:15 AM | ||
I don't know about your first suggestion, but this is definitely a good way to try it, and I do it too from time time or when im just not engine braking normally. |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Sep 9 2009, 04:58 PM | ||
The remedial process of it, no, but using applying it for what it's used for, very hard. Threshold braking itself is quite difficult, but adding in an element where part of your foot is doing something completely different makes the process entirely complicated. People who drive competitively w/out abs know this all too well. As you're coming in hot to a corner, you have to: -Concentrate as you spot the point at which you begin threshold braking. -Carefully depress the pedal, while paying close attention to how the car is acting at the given point and then decide how much more to press while your car is dying to lock up. -No tarmac is the same, even on a single track, and throughout the day, the track itself changes with ground temperature and collection of rubber from the days participants. On your morning runs, if you think you have everything down, you really dont, because the afternoon will bring a totally different atmosphere. This causes even more concentration diversion from your next task. -While modulating your threshold, you now have to relocate part of your foot, press down with a totally different force to blip the throttle.The forces must be separate so you do not destroy your braking line. Using unnecessary force from the blipping on the brake and you can either upset the balance of your car, or lock your brakes. -Transfer from braking gradually into working the throttle after apex. All of this takes place in a matter of seconds and there is nothing easy about it. If you've ever tried to cut time on a track or at an autocross, you'd know. It's a completely different process than using it while putt-putting around the streets. |
| Posted by: JaeMok Sep 9 2009, 05:35 PM |
| Well most of us here don't go autoxing and only use heel-toe for smoother downshifts during day to day driving. Also, I think xsleepdrifterx was referring to the step-by-step process of heel-toe, not applying it to track runs/autox. |
| Posted by: flohtingPoint Sep 9 2009, 05:55 PM | ||||
Hence the first half of my initial sentence.
|
| Posted by: sideways Sep 9 2009, 09:29 PM | ||
And thus explains the beauty of seeing someone using heel-toe properly. |
| Posted by: DigiBunny Dec 2 2009, 11:15 PM |
| Question. I'm having problems heel toeing in my AE101; the brake and gas pedals are a little too close than what I would like and I end up over braking if I attempt to give the throttle a blip. Possible solutions? |
| Posted by: WRX DEMON Type R Dec 3 2009, 02:24 AM |
| Only answers I can think of for that one is 1. Get thinner shoes (if you are wearing big, thick sneakers or shoes) or 2. Trim the pedals (or find someone who knows how to). |
| Posted by: sideways Dec 3 2009, 05:24 AM | ||
2 suggestions. One, go bare foot. Two, remove the idea of "heel-toe" out of your mind. Some cars you just need to roll the edge of your foot over, others its a more literal use of the name. Just keep practicing until you can do it smoothly. |
| Posted by: DigiBunny Dec 3 2009, 05:30 AM | ||
You mean angle my foot so it's less of a parallel placement and more of a 45 degree-ish thing? |
| Posted by: sideways Dec 4 2009, 01:57 AM |
| Pretty much, that or whatever way works |
| Posted by: Möbius Dec 4 2009, 07:14 AM |
| And make sure you don't wear leather dress shoes... >_< |
| Posted by: DigiBunny Dec 4 2009, 08:00 AM | ||
... And this is the other reason for me to hate my school uniform. Though I dont think I'll be doing any Heel toe in Manila traffic heading to school with this thing. A bit of rev matching, yes, but nothing that would require ( or allow ) me to brake and downshift a gear. Ah well. At least I no longer have to lug my crap around now that I have my own vehicle. Just leave it in the trunk and lock it. >_> |
| Posted by: RedsunsF1 Nov 14 2012, 08:41 AM |
| I have been practicing heel toe technique for many years and believe I have it down pretty well. Those who are new to it should read this thread from beginning to end. very good read! |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 10 2013, 06:45 PM |
| I would love to be able to heel-toe, but my feet are just too big. I can do it if there is a ton of room and space between the pedals, though. But I am 6'3" and almost 300lbs, I wear size 15 or 16 6-wide shoes, so for the most part, I just downshift and ease the clutch. Haven't lost a clutch yet. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 12 2013, 12:07 AM | ||
| Shoe size is irrelevant. Having the proper bend in your leg, and adjusting the pedals properly is what is important. You don't really use your heel, you use the side of your foot. Also, having racing shoes is a big help because they are super thin (gives THAT much more legroom), and very narrow, and usually have an edge on the side of the pedal that helps with heel and toe. The closer your pedal and gas pedals are together, the easier it is to do. But they need to be at about the same height (the gas pedal can be slightly higher) when you are pressing on the brake. Finally, it's easier to do when your leg is about 80 straight. Which is the hard part when you are tall.
Not true, leather dress shows can actually be better at heel and toe than a badly designed driving shoe because the hard edge of the side of the foot helps you press harder on the edge of the throttle. |
| Posted by: Spaz Apr 12 2013, 06:46 AM |
| I acutally use my old marching shoes from band in high school for racing events, though I can do it just fine in both the running and skate shoes I wear on a regular basis. Sandals too. Haven't tried it barefoot yet, though. EDIT: Forgot dress shoes, I've got a brown slip-on pair and a pair of black Deer Stags with HUGE soles. I've become accustomed to heel-toeing in both. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 12 2013, 10:17 AM |
| I want driving shoes so bad but none of them I've found are wide enough for my foot. And those that are, are custom made for big $$. Right now, if I want to heel-toe, its more like toe-heel. keep toes on gas and brake with side or heel. Theres a floor curve under the gas in the Z that makes other ways near impossible for my feet. Like, the gas pedal is very very close to the side. I can do normal heel-toe on the Xterra, though. Not much need. I mean yeah its supercharged and all but its hard to feel sporty in a vehicle thats over 5000lbs with me in it. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 13 2013, 03:52 PM |
| You can bend the gas pedal and install a custom pedal cover, so it can be adjusted in basically any way you want. It might take a little bit of finessing but the size of your feet doesn't matter as long as you do it right. And it might also take just the right shoes (or lack thereof). Again, you don't actually use your heel or your toe!!! The term heel and toe comes from back when the gas pedal on racing cars was in the middle. That said, you will never be able to drive a formula car... there simply isn't enough room for a big driver and even less room for big feet. Ask me how I know. lol. Also, having stainless mesh brake lines helps because it reduces brake pedal movement. And also remember that you can adjust your brake pedal height (and probably take a small amount of slack out of the pedal, but you have to be careful with that). |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 14 2013, 11:30 PM |
| I've got braided and coated lines ready to go on... the brakes are very responsive as-is. I'm not really interested in competition against other people, only spirited driving on the mountain/hill roads by myself. And I figure having some of these techniques at hand would make it more fun. How do you know about Formula 1? hehe |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 15 2013, 02:38 AM |
| There is a reason there are no guys over 6" in formula racing with size 16 6E feet. They don't fit in the car! I've driven a formula car and sat in another one and at 5'11" with size 10 feet I was BARELY able to fit inside of it. The steering shaft was so low that I could only press on half of the brake pedal. There is ZERO room in the front of the car. There is no room even for a dead pedal. If I hadn't had racing shoes, I wouldn't have been able to drive it at all! I was BARELY able to heel and toe. Even though it was a Formula car, and we took the seat and pads out, I was basically sitting straight up! My legs were still bent so my knees still hit the steering wheel. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 15 2013, 05:18 PM |
| Barely able to heel-toe? Must have been an older car, eh? They have had those paddle shifts for a long time now. That was probably an awesome experience though. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 15 2013, 07:04 PM | ||
You realize I'm not talking about an F1 car, right? There are all kinds of Formula cars. The one I drove was an FJ1600, which is an older Japanese Formula car similar to Formula Ford (the most common kind of Formula car). Most Formula cars still have shift levers and clutches. I was able to do heel and toe just fine, but it would have been easier to do if I had time to adjust the pedals. I would not have been able to do it at all without my very thin, very narrow driving shoes. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 15 2013, 08:18 PM |
| Ah, ok. I've heard of that sort of thing but like I said, I'm not very interested (and therefore not knowledgeable at all) in multiple car racing really, mostly watch time attacks, hooning, autocross, rally stage solo type races. But that doesn't mean I don't like the cars. Still must have been amazing. Maybe I could try it someday if someone put me in a trash compactor haha |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 15 2013, 09:13 PM |
| That's sort of like being interested in masturbation but not sex. Once you try it you will never want to autocross by yourself again. Anyway, try driving barefoot and if you still can't heel and toe, there's either something wrong with your car's pedals or you're simply not going it right. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 22 2013, 12:35 AM |
| Haha thats a good analogy, but I'm more interested in the mechanical side than the driving. I work on my car because I enjoy creating and fixing things, not because I want a good car. (well maybe a little) I barely even drive the Z, I put around 1-2k miles a year on it. Most drives are under 20 miles round-trip. The heel-toe thing just interests me in a technical way, not in a go-faster way. I may practice and try the shoes-off thing and see how that works out, although its technically illegal to drive without shoes here. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 22 2013, 01:52 AM |
| You don't have to actually drive to practice heel and toe. You can do it with the engine running in neutral. Heel and toe is the first thing you have to learn in order to be a competent sports car driver, assuming you can already drive a manual. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 22 2013, 03:18 AM |
| Roger that, will give it a go. Like I said, I CAN actually do it, just not in the Z, need to work out how to fit my foot. I think its over-revving that scares me about it. That thing goes from 1k to 6k almost instantly now with the clutch in, so I gotta be gentle, not used to it yet. The same-ish engine in the Xterra is like a dinosaur to rev in comparison. That and the Z brakes are super sensitive now. Thanks for the advice, I'll go practice. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 22 2013, 03:56 AM |
| There is no load on the engine in neutral, so as long as your rev limiter works the only thing you're going to hurt is your neighbor's ears. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 22 2013, 04:25 AM |
| Redline is at 6000. Rev limiter is a fuel cut at 7200. Engine will go before then most likely, with the cams in it, I'll float a valve. Cams supposed to be OK with stock springs to about 6200 according to company that did it. Above that, bad things, and I'm not looking to test it. I keep it under 5k usually. Power starts dropping off at around 5500 anyway. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 22 2013, 04:38 AM |
| Why would you not upgrade the springs with the cams? It would have taken basically no extra effort. |