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> Clutchless Shifting
MetalMan777
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 03:01 PM


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QUOTE (biggamehit @ 39 minutes, 34 seconds ago)
.... technically double clutching only applies to very large trucks...

I know what you mean but in this situation double clutching=clutch kicking.

.......

I really aught to make a thread defining this, I'll do it later though.


Double clutching-

When you want to downshift without straining your synchromesh you clutch once to pull the gear selector lever out of a particular gear, let up on the clutch, hit the gas to match the speed of the engine to the speed of thetransmission input shaft, clutch again and put the gear selecter lever into the desired gear.

This techinique has a shitty definition on wikipedia, just one piece of evidence as to why wikipedia should not be taken as gospel.

Racing drivers used to double clutch in the olden days, back before decent synchromesh was invented. Cars have had synchromesh since the late 20's, it just happened that cars weren't pushing 100 horsepower back then. Oh wait, race cars were, and they'd eat synchronizers if they didn't double clutch, so they just didn't bother with the damn things. They had unsynchronized transmissions now refered to as crashboxes. I love crashboxes.
sideways
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 05:52 PM


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QUOTE (biggamehit @ 3 hours, 30 minutes ago)
.... technically double clutching only applies to very large trucks...

I know what you mean but in this situation double clutching=clutch kicking.

That or if your cars from like the 50 and lacks synchros smile.gif
CrypticApathy
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 07:39 PM


OH SNAP!
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QUOTE

QUOTE (crypticapathy)
1 is a 30 (break pads) dollar part to replace the other is a 1k+ (transmission) dollar part to replace. Which would you rather spend money on?


In my case brake pads for my car are 150+, and transmissions are 100. Swapping a transmission takes me maaaybe an hour so... *ponders*

lol Your the extreme exception not the rule.

And no double clutching isnt clutch kicking.

Double clutching is when you are going from 2nd to 3rd(or what ever gear to what ever gear) you would

1. Put in clutch
2. Take out gear
3. Let off clutch
4. put in clutch
5. Put in gear
6. Let out clutch

That is double clutching. The whole point of synchros is to help your gears mesh together when you are shifting from one to the other. If you arnt going directly in to a another gear without droping it in to "neutral" then you need your syncros.

I used to do it to my car because my 2nd gear synchros were grinding a little when i shifted. So i had to do it every time i went in to 2nd gear to stop them from grinding.


Clutch kicking is when your giving it gas at high rpms and press the clutch in really fast and let off of it to simulate dropping in to a new gear at high rpms or shifting a gear so you can have a jolt of torque.

1. Give it gas in gear
2. Kick the clutch real quick
3. stomp on gas

This is a way to break your tires lose if you drift although its hard on the power train. Since your lose power then get a sudden burst of it.

This post has been edited by CrypticApathy on Jun 21 2010, 07:48 PM
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 22 2010, 12:01 AM


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Im aware of what double clutching and clutch kicking are. the way in which he used the term "double clutching" was not correct... what he was talking about runs more along the lines of clutch kicking..

You are slightly incorrect about clutch kicking as well... its done in motion while at at least 80% throttle.

What you explained is clutch slipping/dumping/sidestep or any other cool name out there..

my latest video first few seconds... drifting the inside of the track.. that is clutch kicking you hear it at 21 seconds.

YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgvfKFkUHRs )




As its been pointed out.... any production car after the 50s has synchromesh transmissions.... the work is done for you. if your gears grind that means your syncho's are done for due to poor shifting and or using the wrong GL rated gear oil.

This post has been edited by biggamehit on Jun 22 2010, 12:21 AM
Möbius
Posted: Jun 22 2010, 06:12 AM


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I am pretty sure you've posted it already, but I can't find it, what do you use for onboard camera?
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biggamehit
Posted: Jun 22 2010, 12:24 PM


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Sticky pod

Stickypod.com

going on 3 years of ownership and it still works like a champ. the camera is an Panasonic 3ccd camera. Ill go HD soon enough.

user posted image
CrypticApathy
Posted: Jun 22 2010, 05:33 PM


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How is that wrong i never said let off the gas.
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 23 2010, 12:04 AM


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im not trying to be argumentative here bro but this what you posted

1. Give it gas in gear ( you are already on the throttle and with at least 80% throttle there is no need to give more.. the revs will shoot up regardless )

2. Kick the clutch real quick ( well said )

3. stomp on gas ( once again you don't stomp on the gas as your foot is already on it. the revs are already going up shocking the drivetrain, drifting is not about pedal to the floor all the time )

prime example with footwork video from my track again this time with the top D1SL driver of the track.. a 17 year old team orange member, his dad owns the track so its no reason why he should not be the best in our region lol.

YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPN1TilX1sM )


This post has been edited by biggamehit on Jun 23 2010, 12:09 AM
DCC #77
Posted: Jun 23 2010, 12:30 AM


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Just to chuck my own 2c in here...

While I am part of that 0.1% of drivers here who spends as much on a gearbox as a set of brake pads (Hell, I got a standard 4 speed box for free last weekend), I still say that it is a valuable skill to learn.

It's already been said, but if your timing is on the mark it won't damage your synchros. The reason is because they aren't actually doing any work; you're doing it for them by matching the revs to the next gear.

I don't practice it all the time because I like having a daily driver with a working gearbox, but I do practice my timing while using my clutch to avoid any grinding and so that the synchros can take up the slack. Try it, you'll be able to feel the difference in both down and upchanges when you match the revs versus dry shifting.

When I shift into first on a very slight roll (not recommended but yeah...) I blip the revs slightly to let the shifter in gently since my cars don't have a synchro on first gear.
Same goes for second when I first set off in the morning as I put gearbox viscosity oil when I should be using regular engine oil in mine. Sometimes it won't go into gear at all without rev matching...

When I snapped a clutch cable a few months ago I was able to baby the car home going very slowly. Never ever try clutchless at high speed (both moving and shifting speed) or at high revs unless you've had hours and hours of practice, it's just asking for trouble.

Another point I would like to add, I use my gears to slow down in conjunction with my normal brakes when I deem it necessary. Never had any reason to believe I should do otherwise, only that you don't use them instead of your brakes or at a downchange at high RPM which will stress the synchros too much. Use them responsibly and gently and you'll find them a valuable tool in driving a manual.

Clutchless shifting will get you home in an emergency, and can be used in leiu of your synchros or if they're significantly worn down. I say practice it slowly and gently around a quiet area (where no one will laugh when you grind), increasing until you can do it at normal traffic speed.
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 23 2010, 01:58 AM


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good stuff^^

its second nature for me to use downshifting in conjuntion with braking. the only time I use my brakes really is when racing on the track.
avraell
Posted: Jun 24 2010, 01:42 PM


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I tried the no clutch thing last night - seems to be easier for downshifts since you just raise the revs. Went smooth as hell, I probably won't be doing it again though.
sideways
Posted: Jun 25 2010, 01:27 PM


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QUOTE (biggamehit @ Jun 23 2010, 01:04 AM)
im not trying to be argumentative here bro but this what you posted

1. Give it gas in gear ( you are already on the throttle and with at least 80% throttle there is no need to give more.. the revs will shoot up regardless )

2. Kick the clutch real quick ( well said )

3. stomp on gas ( once again you don't stomp on the gas as your foot is already on it. the revs are already going up shocking the drivetrain, drifting is not about pedal to the floor all the time )

prime example with footwork video from my track again this time with the top D1SL driver of the track.. a 17 year old team orange member, his dad owns the track so its no reason why he should not be the best in our region lol.

Haha, seems to me like youre arguing over semantics now tongue.gif Maybe when he said stomp on the gas he meant to stomp on the gas AFTER youve kicked the clutch to keep the tires going? Not a literal "stomp on the gas!" but a figurative stomp on the gas to keep the rear end out. Unless youre driving a rolla, then you do need to stomp on the gas

Just sayin.. wink2.gif

This post has been edited by sideways on Jun 25 2010, 01:27 PM
biggamehit
Posted: Jun 25 2010, 02:24 PM


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hahah roger that... I really need to drift a rolla.... I have never gotten around to that.
sideways
Posted: Jun 25 2010, 03:09 PM


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Easy to drift if youre confident with the basics, not much fun if youre not. All about momentum and carrying speed. Its a lot like youd probably anticipate. For me, its a lot of fun. Def give it a try if possible before you leave jdm land and hit iraq, or try for a ride along with a friend if you havent been in one before. Biggest complaint about the rolla for me honestly is the slow steering, tossing between S turns can be a nightmare and leave you tossing the wheel around like a mad man. Hoepfully my mr2 rack swap (knock on wood- should be real soon) will fix that issue completely.
backalleyracer
Posted: Jun 25 2010, 03:54 PM


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I also approve of the hachi, even if it was on the shitties of shit tires laugh.gif
sideways
Posted: Jun 25 2010, 06:12 PM


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QUOTE (backalleyracer @ 2 hours, 18 minutes ago)
I also approve of the hachi, even if it was on the shitties of shit tires laugh.gif

Man you shouldve seen the rolla when i was rocking my costco-specials. If you slid the car youd leave clean spots (No joke, have pictures of it somewhere)
avraell
Posted: Jun 29 2010, 03:45 PM


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I seem to be having trouble getting the car OUT of gear clutchless. I am not sure what revs are supposed to be.

The easiest way I found to practice getting it IN gear is:

1. Get on a straight road, note what rpms are at.
2. Get car out of gear w/ clutch.
3. Match RPMs with nothing engaged.
4. Put it into the same gear without clutch.

+it just seems like normal rev matching on downshifts. So, any advice on getting it OUT?
Skv012a
  Posted: Jun 30 2010, 09:23 AM


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For me, if it doesn't want to get out of gear I simply blip the throttle a little bit and then it pops out easily. Kinda interesting reading that some of you find downshifting easier. I simply catch the matched RPM point while the engine revs drop in neutral and pop in-gear at that moment.
flohtingPoint
Posted: Jun 30 2010, 10:14 AM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Jun 25 2010, 03:09 PM)
Biggest complaint about the rolla for me honestly is the slow steering, tossing between S turns can be a nightmare and leave you tossing the wheel around like a mad man. Hoepfully my mr2 rack swap (knock on wood- should be real soon) will fix that issue completely.

It'll fix it a bit, I tried several different racks (MR2, 240SX, 240SX HICAS) and they were a decent fix. Best bet is a manual rack with Quaife quicksteer. I have one that I built for next year and it's wonderful.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 30 2010, 10:36 PM


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I was bored in traffic today so I practiced a bit. I can't get the shift into 3rd right, but I can do all the other transitions pretty easily. Going back into first is something of a pain but not as bad as third. Dunno why.

But yeah, boredom. I don't see myself doing this anymore, I was just curious if I could. laugh.gif
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biggamehit
Posted: Jul 3 2010, 04:07 PM


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QUOTE (sideways @ Jun 25 2010, 03:09 PM)
Easy to drift if youre confident with the basics, not much fun if youre not. All about momentum and carrying speed. Its a lot like youd probably anticipate. For me, its a lot of fun. Def give it a try if possible before you leave jdm land and hit iraq, or try for a ride along with a friend if you havent been in one before. Biggest complaint about the rolla for me honestly is the slow steering, tossing between S turns can be a nightmare and leave you tossing the wheel around like a mad man. Hoepfully my mr2 rack swap (knock on wood- should be real soon) will fix that issue completely.

yea I have a few buddies with them here and stateside. Ill slide one tomorrow at the track video to come.
vash169
Posted: Jul 7 2010, 10:29 AM


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I think the moral of the story is if you want mad doriftu, or are trying to take time off the 1/4 mile, or whatever reason you have that makes you consider shifting without a clutch, the answer is don't bother. Least of all on a car that you still want to drive to work with.

If you're shifting up you pop the shifter out, lower the rpms to what they should be, then push the shifter into the next gear. During the time you're rev-matching, even if you have a lightweight flywheel, you could have just used the clutch. Same for downshifting.

I don't disagree it would be handy if your clutch gave out and you were miles from safe harbor, but it's not worth damaging something trying to figure out how to do it.
sideways
Posted: Jul 7 2010, 10:29 PM


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Cant really say i did a whole lot of damage to mine learning how to do it, took about 5 minutes of fukking around before i had it down. Id just like driving smoothly with the clutch, except youre not using the clutch. Realisticly the time to "shift" should be exactly the same, if youre not using the clutch to "smooth" out the shift that is. ANyone who's used to rev-matching (up and down) already should have 0 problems catching onto how to do this without (much) damage. Transmissions are designed to be driven by idiots- a few minutes of goofing around is hardly detrimental to a transmission unless its already on its last leg.
Möbius
Posted: Jul 8 2010, 07:18 AM


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Great, you guys are going to make me try it now. tongue.gif
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MetalMan777
Posted: Jul 8 2010, 02:05 PM


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Wait, you mean you've never tried it?

I used to do it all the time in cars that weren't mine.

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