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> Formula 1
Ben
  Posted: Jul 7 2005, 05:22 PM


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lol.. n00bs are funny.. ^^

But, Schumacher... He is a spectacular driver and a very valuable person on a team, as he knows more than most on any team. Many call him a cheater, a manipulator and a thief, it's idiocy that the ignorant can't tell that all his talent is self-developed and purely him, not the speed of his car, although that also plays a vital role, but not for long.
696
Posted: Jul 11 2005, 07:55 AM


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QUOTE (Benji @ Jul 7 2005, 05:22 PM)
lol.. n00bs are funny.. ^^

But, Schumacher... He is a spectacular driver and a very valuable person on a team, as he knows more than most on any team. Many call him a cheater, a manipulator and a thief, it's idiocy that the ignorant can't tell that all his talent is self-developed and purely him, not the speed of his car, although that also plays a vital role, but not for long.

Well then I'd like to see Schumacher in a Jordan or a Minardi.

Don't get me wrong here. Schumacher is a great driver but you take his great car away from him and the going gets tough ( this goes for any driver, not only Schumi). I think the beginning of this season proved this to be true.
DGoReck
Posted: Jul 11 2005, 08:33 AM


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QUOTE (Benji @ Jul 6 2005, 03:22 AM)
rofl.. As if that was the teams fault.. Michellen didn't have safe enough tyres... You seem to be laying the blame 100% on the teams and their drivers, the drivers don't control shit over what they do, they have to follow orders or they are gone. Go read up on f1.com and go a couple of pages back in the news and extend your knowledge more than what the news tells you.

I think you need to re-read the website. I read the FIA letter back to Michellen and the teams, which presented them with options for the race.

They could have raced, changed tires every 10 laps, and would have not incurred any penalty.

FYI, F1.com was the only site I read, aside from the FIA site, and watching it on TV. Is it wrong to formulate my own opinion?

Drivers and the team, are one in the same, an entity.

Please don't tell me that the drivers did not know before hand that they would pull out of the race after the parade lap. To think that, it is crap. The drivers as well as the team, played in and with Michellens stunt. So the 7 teams are found guilty for not having suitable tires. Who is to blame, Michellen. The teams knew they had problems, and couldnt race but the lined up anyways.

And from the news today. Well its nice to see Michellen is gonna pay back all the people, and pay for 20,000 tickets for next year. Maybe they will have their act together then, and not pull this stunt again. (Yes, I am still gonna call it a stunt, as you cannot tell me that the largest tyre manufacture in racing would not not have a suitable tire.)
696
Posted: Jul 12 2005, 05:29 AM


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I'd say it's the FIA and Max who have committed a stunt and not Michelin.

Michelin asked for a temporary ( not meaning shitty, quickly set up and dangerous) chicane before the last, high-speed corner where the Michelins had a chance of letting go. Michelin did not ask for the teams running on their tires to receive any points hence it would not have been unfair to the three Bridgestone teams. It was purely conceived in order to give the crowd a great and safe show. The FIA denied this request saying it was against the FIA rules to modify a track under such circumstances.

This was the best option available as it would have rendered the race safe even with the Michelins running and it would have given the American spectators something to watch and to look forward to next year. This is something important because the U.S.A. Grand-Prix is in a dwindling state with support decreasing and, as the humour of the spectators that day showed, the numbers might decrease even more next year. The same people would be on the podium because Michelin did not ask for any points and neither did the teams running their tires.

Michelin seem to me as the ones who were the most mature and responsible in this whole debacle. They proposed a safe and entertaining ( very important in this case) race without penalty to the teams who had better tires. They even repaid the spectators ( something that the FIA did not even propose and that in this case would have been a wise choice, especially for Bernie if he wants to sign another contract with Indianopolis next year) who lost money and time watching something I see as a joke.
InitialN00b
Posted: Jul 12 2005, 09:34 AM


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QUOTE (696 @ Jul 11 2005, 11:55 AM)

Well then I'd like to see Schumacher in a Jordan or a Minardi.

Don't get me wrong here. Schumacher is a great driver but you take his great car away from him and the going gets tough ( this goes for any driver, not only Schumi). I think the beginning of this season proved this to be true.

People seem to forget MS is GREAT at developing cars; they also look at his success in Ferrari and just assumes he went there when the team was at their prime.

History lesson:

MS started out in Jordan in 91. First ever race was at Spa and he outqualifies his team-mate and puts the car in the 7th slot. DNF'ed due to clutch failure.

Fast forward to 92-95. Benetton years. 92-93 the car was lacklustre. Clearly a step or two below the Williams who had a far superior package. Yet he still won some races and even challenged AND passed Senna at Silverston in 93.

Won WDC in 94 and 95 including nine victories in 95.

Moved to Ferrari in 96 where the car was just a pile of shit.
Challenged for the WDC ALREADY versus a superior Williams driven by Villeneuve in 97 up until the final race at Jerez.

Lost in 98 and 99 to Mika.
won in 00-05.

I have no doubts if he was at toyota this year, he'd have won 3 or 4
AETRAN86
Posted: Jul 12 2005, 09:55 AM


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QUOTE (696 @ Jul 12 2005, 05:29 AM)
I'd say it's the FIA and Max who have committed a stunt and not Michelin.

Michelin asked for a temporary ( not meaning shitty, quickly set up and dangerous) chicane before the last, high-speed corner where the Michelins had a chance of letting go. Michelin did not ask for the teams running on their tires to receive any points hence it would not have been unfair to the three Bridgestone teams. It was purely conceived in order to give the crowd a great and safe show. The FIA denied this request saying it was against the FIA rules to modify a track under such circumstances.

This was the best option available as it would have rendered the race safe even with the Michelins running and it would have given the American spectators something to watch and to look forward to next year. This is something important because the U.S.A. Grand-Prix is in a dwindling state with support decreasing and, as the humour of the spectators that day showed, the numbers might decrease even more next year. The same people would be on the podium because Michelin did not ask for any points and neither did the teams running their tires.

Michelin seem to me as the ones who were the most mature and responsible in this whole debacle. They proposed a safe and entertaining ( very important in this case) race without penalty to the teams who had better tires. They even repaid the spectators ( something that the FIA did not even propose and that in this case would have been a wise choice, especially for Bernie if he wants to sign another contract with Indianopolis next year) who lost money and time watching something I see as a joke.

Actually the drivers with the michelins said even with a chicane they would not of been able to compete rendering the chicane useless. Bottom line is tha F1 made a rule change and michelin could not comply. I don't see how thats the FIAs fault. Also if you don't think michael schumacher is great then you must not be a big F1 fan. You don't have to like him but that still doesn't make him any less a good driver. You have to remember there are alot of thigs inside that car thats adjustable from brakes to the TCS system. I'd say 100% of the drivers have to adjust somthing some time during the race. Hence changing the car. You act like it's the ferrari carrying him around not the other way around.
DGoReck
Posted: Jul 13 2005, 03:00 AM


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The whole race for no points is a total joke.

What would prevent a Michelin team, who is now driving for no points, from purposily going to slow in an area, or accidently knocking into a bridgstone car casuing them to race.... It's makes sense to have a no opoints race, but in reality it isn't that simple, when a team can ruin a race on purpose for some team who would sill have been in the points....


So who is Ready for Argentina this weekend? whoops thats WRC.... Who is looking forward to Germany in 2 weeks.
696
Posted: Jul 13 2005, 12:26 PM


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QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Jul 12 2005, 09:55 AM)
Actually the drivers with the michelins said even with a chicane they would not of been able to compete rendering the chicane useless... I don't see how thats the FIAs fault. Also if you don't think michael schumacher is great then you must not be a big F1 fan. You don't have to like him but that still doesn't make him any less a good driver. You have to remember there are alot of thigs inside that car thats adjustable from brakes to the TCS system. I'd say 100% of the drivers have to adjust somthing some time during the race. Hence changing the car. You act like it's the ferrari carrying him around not the other way around.

Where did you read that the drivers said the chicane was useless? Must be some article/pres. I missed because I never saw the drivers going against Michelin's proposition at Indy. Please pass me the link if you have it.

Secondly, you should reread my post because I never said/implied that Michael is a bad driver. On the contrary, I clearly wrote that he's a great driver. I have no reason to hate him, either. I had started this discussion when Benji wrote that the capabilities of a car matter but not for long. The only point I was trying to make is that the car clearly plays a crucial part in racing. You have to face the fact that if a great driver races in a shitty car, he'll reach the car's limit one day or another. My position on this would not have been different if you had chosen Kimi, Button, Sato or some other driver I like.

I know that there are many things that are done by the driver thanks to his steering wheel: radio, speed limiters, diff. levels of tcs, braking settings. I am aware of this.

DGoReck:

"What would prevent a Michelin team, who is now driving for no points, from purposily going to slow in an area, or accidently knocking into a bridgstone car casuing them to race.... It's makes sense to have a no opoints race, but in reality it isn't that simple, when a team can ruin a race on purpose for some team who would sill have been in the points...."

Pretty pessimistic look if you ask me. Why would the Michelin cars run slow or ruin the race for the Bridgestone teams? Ruining a race for another team on purpouse will undoubtedly get you a penalty. A penalty that drivers don't want. Plus, it wasn't supposed to be a "no points" race but a "no points for Michelin teams" race hence the teams that got points ( all the Bridgestone teams in this case) would still have gotten the same amount of points and same standings.


P.S. I hope you guys don't feel I'm trying to bash Schumacher here or something.

About the German GP, I think all of us here are looking forward to it, hehe. w00t2.gif I hope BAR Honda get good results this time. I was already happy with Button's 5th place at Silverstone and I hope that Sato can join in and rake in some very needed points. The team has been doing horribly this year in comparison to last year when the team placed second, only behind the famous Scuderia.






krazyndn411
Posted: Jul 13 2005, 12:37 PM


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QUOTE (Benji @ Jul 7 2005, 05:22 PM)
lol.. n00bs are funny.. ^^

But, Schumacher... He is a spectacular driver and a very valuable person on a team, as he knows more than most on any team. Many call him a cheater, a manipulator and a thief, it's idiocy that the ignorant can't tell that all his talent is self-developed and purely him, not the speed of his car, although that also plays a vital role, but not for long.

Schumacher is an amazing driver. At that level, you can't win multiple championships by "cheating and manipulating." With the limitations already in place, most cars are at least close to matching Ferrari. People have always hated champions and latest fiasco with the tires didn't help [many people blamed Ferrari not the FIA for not allowing tire changes]. dry.gif
hellbent
Posted: Jul 16 2005, 08:23 AM


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well, looks like all the teams r off the hook now.
As there will be no punishment handed down to them due to recent evidence.

BTW, My opinion is that Shumy is not the best anymore. Look at MIki, not once but twice he had a engine failure and brought his car from the back to 2 and 3. To bring ur car from 13th position to 2 is amazing by any standard.
ryot4
Posted: Jul 16 2005, 12:46 PM


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QUOTE (Benji @ Jul 6 2005, 05:34 PM)
Technical Regulations - 2008

The FIA has officially revealed details of its plans to reform Formula One's Technical Regulations for the start of the 2008 season in a bid to reduce the costs of competing in the sport, whilst simultaneously attempting to increase competitiveness among teams. The proposed changes have been approved by the World Motor Sport Council and feedback on them is now being sought.

Major proposals include:

A single, control-spec Engine Control Unit (ECU) for all competitors, "manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification." This would make it possible to effectively enforce a ban on driver aids like traction control.

Standard gearboxes fitted with common parts for all cars - with control to be via a driver-operated clutch pedal and gearshift similar to those of a conventional manual-transmission road car.

Revised bodywork to reduce downforce by approximately 90 percent while allowing cars a wider track. This would allow cars to follow each other far closer through corners without the loss of aerodynamic grip and thus would be likely to increase opportunities for drivers to pass each other.

Tyres supplied by a single manufacturer to all teams, the reintroduction of slick tyres and larger wheels - plus a ban on tyre-heating devices.

A "minimum specified" centre-of-gravity for every Formula One chassis and improved impact testing, again to increase competitiveness, but also driver impact protection.

Standard brakes for all competitors to reduce development costs.

....blah blah blah we're a bunch of idiots that want more cash at the cost of diriving evolution....

i couldn't bear to read anymore of this shit... for a second there i though i was reading a nascar regulations paper. >_<
Blazing Bullet
Posted: Jul 18 2005, 12:47 AM


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Ah i know im gonna watch this thread.

Shumi is a very fast driver, his has lots of skill and also a lot of luck. Which is something that everyone needs in F1.

Mathmatically its still possible for kimi to catch up. But in reality its going to be hard work even if kimi wins every GP with alonso just 1 place lower for the remaining 9/8 GP.
696
Posted: Jul 18 2005, 07:31 AM


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QUOTE (Blazing Bullet @ Jul 18 2005, 12:47 AM)
Ah i know im gonna watch this thread.

Shumi is a very fast driver, his has lots of skill and also a lot of luck. Which is something that everyone needs in F1.

Mathmatically its still possible for kimi to catch up. But in reality its going to be hard work even if kimi wins every GP with alonso just 1 place lower for the remaining 9/8 GP.

I doubt Kimi can win, especially when his engine mysteriously explodes at every practice.
Blazing Bullet
Posted: Jul 19 2005, 11:04 PM


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Ferrari proved it can be done 2003. They were in this sorta postion but they won the championship (just).
696
Posted: Jul 20 2005, 06:31 AM


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QUOTE (Blazing Bullet @ Jul 19 2005, 11:04 PM)
Ferrari proved it can be done 2003. They were in this sorta postion but they won the championship (just).

With competition like this year? Kimi's really good and drives till his car falls to pieces. He doesn't give up but he would need some real magic to win in this situation.
Ben
  Posted: Jul 21 2005, 03:59 AM


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So much to reply to... I won't reply to all of you, sorry..

QUOTE (AETRAN86)
Actually the drivers with the michelins said even with a chicane they would not of been able to compete rendering the chicane useless. Bottom line is tha F1 made a rule change and michelin could not comply. I don't see how thats the FIAs fault. Also if you don't think michael schumacher is great then you must not be a big F1 fan. You don't have to like him but that still doesn't make him any less a good driver. You have to remember there are alot of thigs inside that car thats adjustable from brakes to the TCS system. I'd say 100% of the drivers have to adjust somthing some time during the race. Hence changing the car. You act like it's the ferrari carrying him around not the other way around.


So true... i <3 you.

///

The no points thing. That wouldn't work, it would mean more overtaking, more tactic involved to get past the other teams for Bridgestone, meaning slower pace and advantage to the slower cars maybe... We won't know but thats an almost definate.

///

Shuey is a spectacular driver, Ferrari just didn't do enough developing over the summer... (or winter in your cases)

I'll finish this later.. i'm tired..
696
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 04:05 AM


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Kimi's engine is doing fine now, it seems. I'd rather see him in first place in the Driver's Championship than Alonso. I'm a bit more optimistic now that his engine is doing fine and I hope he can somehow squeeze in but that's gonna be a tough job. fear2.gif

EDIT: Well, Kimi's transmission just let go and he's out of this race. frog.gif At least Button moves up a space.

This post has been edited by 696 on Jul 24 2005, 04:53 AM
StReEtWaLkeR
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 09:29 AM


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The start of the race was awesome, first turn 7 cars wide....I think its gonna be dogfight wit Kimi, Alonso, an Schmucher, but I think Juan Montoya is gonna catch up.
Blazing Bullet
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 05:03 PM


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well..... i think kimi has lost it now....... but mclaren still have a chance for the manufactures championship. But the drivers one is pretty much hopeless now
StReEtWaLkeR
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 05:53 PM


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Honestly Juan and Kimi were suppose to pwn today. Mad props to Montoya.
Blazing Bullet
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 10:10 PM


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agreed. but acutally... mclaren were suppose to pWn ever since imola!!
AETRAN86
Posted: Jul 24 2005, 11:37 PM


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QUOTE (696 @ Jul 13 2005, 12:26 PM)
QUOTE (AETRAN86 @ Jul 12 2005, 09:55 AM)
Actually the drivers with the michelins said even with a chicane they would not of been able to compete rendering the chicane useless... I don't see how thats the FIAs fault. Also if you don't think michael schumacher is great then you must not be a big F1 fan. You don't have to like him but that still doesn't make him any less a good driver. You have to remember there are alot of thigs inside that car thats adjustable from brakes to the TCS system. I'd say 100% of the drivers have to adjust somthing some time during the race. Hence changing the car. You act like it's the ferrari carrying him around not the other way around.

Where did you read that the drivers said the chicane was useless? Must be some article/pres. I missed because I never saw the drivers going against Michelin's proposition at Indy. Please pass me the link if you have it.

Secondly, you should reread my post because I never said/implied that Michael is a bad driver. On the contrary, I clearly wrote that he's a great driver. I have no reason to hate him, either. I had started this discussion when Benji wrote that the capabilities of a car matter but not for long. The only point I was trying to make is that the car clearly plays a crucial part in racing. You have to face the fact that if a great driver races in a shitty car, he'll reach the car's limit one day or another. My position on this would not have been different if you had chosen Kimi, Button, Sato or some other driver I like.

I know that there are many things that are done by the driver thanks to his steering wheel: radio, speed limiters, diff. levels of tcs, braking settings. I am aware of this.

DGoReck:

"What would prevent a Michelin team, who is now driving for no points, from purposily going to slow in an area, or accidently knocking into a bridgstone car casuing them to race.... It's makes sense to have a no opoints race, but in reality it isn't that simple, when a team can ruin a race on purpose for some team who would sill have been in the points...."

Pretty pessimistic look if you ask me. Why would the Michelin cars run slow or ruin the race for the Bridgestone teams? Ruining a race for another team on purpouse will undoubtedly get you a penalty. A penalty that drivers don't want. Plus, it wasn't supposed to be a "no points" race but a "no points for Michelin teams" race hence the teams that got points ( all the Bridgestone teams in this case) would still have gotten the same amount of points and same standings.


P.S. I hope you guys don't feel I'm trying to bash Schumacher here or something.

About the German GP, I think all of us here are looking forward to it, hehe. w00t2.gif I hope BAR Honda get good results this time. I was already happy with Button's 5th place at Silverstone and I hope that Sato can join in and rake in some very needed points. The team has been doing horribly this year in comparison to last year when the team placed second, only behind the famous Scuderia.

this is late but actually I saw footage of it after the drivers went into the garage.
696
Posted: Jul 25 2005, 06:20 AM


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QUOTE (StReEtWaLkeR @ Jul 24 2005, 09:29 AM)
The start of the race was awesome, first turn 7 cars wide....I think its gonna be dogfight wit Kimi, Alonso, an Schmucher, but I think Juan Montoya is gonna catch up.

Button passing Schumacher was awesome. w00t2.gif cat.gif
InitialN00b
Posted: Jul 25 2005, 09:04 AM


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QUOTE (696 @ Jul 25 2005, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (StReEtWaLkeR @ Jul 24 2005, 09:29 AM)
The start of the race was awesome, first turn 7 cars wide....I think its gonna be dogfight wit Kimi, Alonso, an Schmucher, but I think Juan Montoya is gonna catch up.

Button passing Schumacher was awesome. w00t2.gif cat.gif

a car with grip passing a car w/o grip is awesome how? rolleyes.gif
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Posted: Jul 25 2005, 09:24 AM


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I didnt watch the whole race.I check online yesterday looking at the outcome and i go " holyshit!" montoya went form 19th to 2nd that just insane big props to him!

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