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> Forget FF, RWD vs. AWD!!!!, give your not-stupid opinion here...
sideways
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 05:08 PM


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I havent been able to do much unsure.gif

I bet you that g35 will kick ass though.. hopefully itll be awd..
BOZZ
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 05:15 PM


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Isn't there a G35Q that features the awe-inspiring, captivating, mouth-watering, explosive, hot hot ATTESA-ETS?
RakeRon
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 05:50 PM


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So what about Toyota's Alltrac system found in the Celica GT-Alltrac? That thing has a 50/50 power distrobution between the front and rear wheels wouldn't it make it better than the average AWD system?
ghwanderer
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 06:45 PM


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QUOTE (BOZZY @ Oct 24 2004, 05:15 PM)
Isn't there a G35Q that features the awe-inspiring, captivating, mouth-watering, explosive, hot hot ATTESA-ETS?

umm have you been in one of those attesa cars
wether it be the skyline or the new g35 it is scary.

a guy who owns a skyline/motorsport shop over here took me for a ride one day. I was like shit you arent even driving half the time, the car has a mind of it's own

i'd take a good ol fr anyday

even though i do love the r34 worship.gif
AETRAN86
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 07:08 PM


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Yes respect the AWD. But my true love will always be FR. grin2.gif
AJS13
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 07:51 PM


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I like FR and MR, there pretty much the only drivetrain I will take, unless its a Skyline GT-R.(But then I would disable the AWD, and make it FR)
sideways
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 08:49 PM


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its drivetrain is purely awesome, you expect awdto losem ore through its drivetrain ebcasue of all the extrap arts but a skyliens system loses abou as much as a rwd from what i udnerstand
Nd4SpdSe
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 09:00 PM


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I like FF cause its what i started with, and i don't want to move on until i've mastered* it. I would like to get a FD3S sometime soon after i turn 25 (i turn 24 in feb) cause of insurance would kill me, and hopefully have a carrier. I would like to start playing around with FR's, but i'll still keep my FF Mx-3 along side an FR, i can choose to drive which ever, depending on the conditions, event and how i feel biggrin.gif... AWD would be fun, but i'd rather get a 4x4 truck, cause there are places that even the best AWD car can go biggrin.gif

I like FF cause i can control between understeer, neutralstreer or oversteer with a variete of techniques, but the problem with FF is that weight tranfter technique are very limited because of the drivetrain layout, and the main thing, you cant drift...

*mastered meaning pushed the limit of FF, so the point where i'm content and couldnt gain more unless i became a professional driver

This post has been edited by Nd4SpdSe on Oct 24 2004, 09:03 PM
AJS13
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 09:10 PM


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QUOTE (Nd4SpdSe @ Oct 25 2004, 06:00 PM)
I like FF cause its what i started with, and i don't want to move on until i've mastered* it. I would like to get a FD3S sometime soon after i turn 25 (i turn 24 in feb) cause of insurance would kill me, and hopefully have a carrier. I would like to start playing around with FR's, but i'll still keep my FF Mx-3 along side an FR, i can choose to drive which ever, depending on the conditions, event and how i feel biggrin.gif... AWD would be fun, but i'd rather get a 4x4 truck, cause there are places that even the best AWD car can go biggrin.gif

I like FF cause i can control between understeer, neutralstreer or oversteer with a variete of techniques, but the problem with FF is that weight tranfter technique are very limited because of the drivetrain layout, and the main thing, you cant drift...

*mastered meaning pushed the limit of FF, so the point where i'm content and couldnt gain more unless i became a professional driver

Ive already reached that with the mini. I can do so much with that car its not funny. I love that cars handling, its better than anycar.
Jayson
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 09:41 PM


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bah, don't have time for reading BS so here's my say.

AWD is more stable then an FR set up, but a good drive will overcome this minor issue. And since AWD does understeer winner is FR

AWD accelerates better from a standstill, no arguing that. Winner AWD

AWD has to distribute all it's power to four wheels, so it can actualy lose up to 40%hp going from engine to road. Seems inefficent to me. Winner FR.

Also, look at ANY major Championship series(besides WRC obviously), they are ALWAYS ran with an FR setup, even if the car is naturaly AWD, they'll convert it to FR because it's a better set up for racing period. World class drivers prefer FR over anything else (except MR maybe, but thats another story). Go ahead, ask any pro/semi-pro driver and they 99.9% say FR.

Sorry, but FR>AWD Period.

But in me book MR is superior to all
sideways
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 10:34 PM


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awd usually doesnt have better acceleration from a stop, more weight to get moving.. once theyre going however its a different.

as for upper end racing, one word: Skyline.

as a "general rule" though, i agree with pretty much everything you said.
Jayson
Posted: Oct 24 2004, 10:45 PM


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If by upper you mean GT style racing, the Skylines are FR
RandRace
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 06:36 AM


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"Weight is the enemy of performance" - Colin Chapman

AWD tends to be too heavy. For off road or bad weather the increased traction makes up for it, but for dry weather road racing I prefer the lighter weight and better balance provided by a FR or MR setup.
Zero
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 10:32 AM


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Driven properly, AWD can just about always get the jump off the line but the launch is really hard on the drivetrain. That's why auto mags give the WRX good times, but the average driver isn't gonna drop the clutch at 6K. AWD isn't so hot on the straight.

And yes I'm a little unfairly biased. Too many DSM's around here that think they're god. . .
sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 12:05 PM


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Ill just let the 0-60 times for awds speak for themself.
Jayson
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 12:23 PM


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Meh, 0-60 and top speed are meaningless now a days
sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 01:02 PM


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Very, im just syaign from a dead stop awd dont have the advantage in comparison, they tend to lose more hp through their drive train, and they have more weight to get moving off the line. a mr or fr car has an easy time beating them when in the same hp/torque ranges.

As i said though, once they -are- moving, its a different story however and accleration belogn to awd, then mr, fr, ff.

Jayson
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 06:24 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 25 2004, 03:02 PM)


As i said though, once they -are- moving, its a different story however and accleration belogn to awd, then mr, fr, ff.

Thats SOOO backwards
sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 06:28 PM


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Soo FFs accelerate faster then fr? Fr accelerate faster then mr? and mr accelerates faster then awd for the most part? Guess my image of FFs is really f**ked up unsure.gif
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 06:48 PM


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I think its like this... correct me if im wrong..

For 4 identical cars (except for drivetrain), with same crank hp, same gear ratios, and same weight etc... the acceleration order will go like this..

From a stop:

AWD(if you drop the clutch from high rpm)>MR>FR>FF

And from a roll:
MR or FF (im not sure) > FR > AWD

The from a roll numbers are like that becuase mr and ff have about the same drivetrain loss of power from the engine to the wheels, then fr is next since it has to go through the driveshaft, and then AWD becuase they naturally have the most power lost becuase it has to channel the power through the front and rear wheels. Im assuming you don't have an assload of HP so you don't spin the tires from a roll. It sounds logical to me, but correct me if im wrong smile.gif

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 25 2004, 07:35 PM
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sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 07:33 PM


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From a stop Mr/Rr has the biggest advantage since it has a low drivetrain loss (comparable to ff), and all its weight is over the driving wheels.

AWD from a stop is a bit disadvantage because theres more weight to get moving, and a bulky drivetrain to do it with (loses more hp through it in comparison to the others)

Fr does pretty good becasue keep in mind as a car starts moving, the weight goes backwards, right onto the drive wheels.

FF is the worst in acceleration be it at a stop or going, because weight moves back under acceleration... unless it was in reverse, anyways its just a major lack of traction

So from a stop rr/mr are on top, awd/fr are pretty close at hand.. depends a lot on the system and setup really, with ff being last.

From a roll awd is usually top dog, being able to push and pull the vehicle at the same time despite the drivetrain loss is a big advantage. next up is fr, then last is ff (weight moving backwards thing still, less traction)

Keep in mind systems arent designed the same, and theres ups and downs to each system/layout, lots of different variables to take into account when comparing.

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 25 2004, 07:37 PM
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 07:41 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 25 2004, 07:33 PM)
From a stop Mr/Rr has the biggest advantage since it has a low drivetrain loss (comparable to ff), and all its weight is over the driving wheels.

AWD from a stop is a disadvantage because theres more weight to get moving, and a bulky drivetrain to do it with (loses more hp through it in comparison to the others)

Fr does pretty good becasue keep in mind as a car starts moving, the weight goes backwards, right onto the drive wheels.

FF is the worst in acceleration be it at a stop or going, because weight moves back under acceleration... unless it was in reverse.

So from a stop rr/mr are on top, awd/fr are pretty close at hand.. depends a lot on the system and setup really, with ff being last.

From a roll awd is usually top dog, being able to push and pull the vehicle at the same time despite the drivetrain loss is a big advantage. next up is fr, then last is ff (weight moving backwards thing still)

Keep in mind systems arent designed the same, and theres ups and downs to each system/layout, lots of different variables to take into account when comparing.

I dunno... I think its the other way around..

from a roll... awd is just dead weight, and you have less hp to the wheels as compared to the other drivetrains. Also.. AWD> all other drivetrains from a stop if you drop the clutch from high rpm (which hurts your tranny and clutch)... its a known fact... the biggest change in inertia is from stop to go (theres a reason why cars only do wheelies when they go from stop to go), so i don't think it will make a difference between ff or mr which one will out-accelerate the other from a roll, and fr has less hp than than ff or mr to the wheels...

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 25 2004, 07:44 PM
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sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 07:53 PM


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FF is always the slowest to accelerate. Keep in mind when something is accelerating weight moves back.

In an FFs case this means weight is moving off of the drive wheels, and giving them less traction. Less traction = less acceleration.
__

as for this awd accelerating slow thing, well.. theres a reason the porsche 911 turbo awd accelerates faster in comparison to the rr porshes, despite the loss of power through the drivetrain.
awddrifter
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 09:11 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Oct 25 2004, 07:53 PM)
FF is always the slowest to accelerate.  Keep in mind when something is accelerating weight moves back.

In an FFs case this means weight is moving off of the drive wheels, and giving them less traction. Less traction = less acceleration.
__

as for this awd accelerating slow thing, well.. theres a reason the porsche 911 turbo awd accelerates faster in comparison to the rr porshes, despite the loss of power through the drivetrain.

the AWD porches always beat the RWD ones because those numbers are usually measured from 0-60 (or 1/4 mile from a stop). I think that the shift of weight from front to back is minimal once the car is in motion... and any loss of traction to the front wheels is not realy as large a benefactor as the difference in wheel hp.

So i should re-phrase what I said smile.gif

from 0-60... its

AWD>MR>FR>FF

and from 5-60 its

FF=MR>FR>AWD

I know im right about the 0-60 part.. but im basing the 5-60 numbers on the 5-60 numbers of cars, where power-to-weight is the same or similar on each car with a different drivetrain. Gearing could come into effect etc... so I could be possibly wrong on the 5-60 order.

For example.... an Evo will annihiate a SRT-4 from a dead stop... but from a 5 mph roll the SRT-4 will (usually) pull on an Evo (stock vs stock). The Lancer Evo has a better power-to-weight ratio as well (3263lbs/271hp=0.0836) compared to the SRT-4 (2939lbs/225hp(its listed as 215hp but dodge lowballs their hp numbers)= 0.07655). Besides... theres tons of videos out there of a stock Evo racing a stock SRT-4 off the line and wasting it... but on a rolling start it gets pulled on...

but then again... the power-to-weight ratio at the wheels for an Evo might be less than the SRT-4...but thats already factorted into my order list above (as in same hp at the crank, same weight, etc, meaning same power-to-weight ratio at the crank). And also I really don't know the real hp at crank for an srt-4... some have been claiming 230hp at the wheels... so i dunno (I personally hate the SRT-4, but I give it props for being fast). So this means that my big example I just went through could be a pile of BS. LOL laugh.gif

I love AWD and all, its my favourite drivetrain, but it does have its downfalls....

This post has been edited by awddrifter on Oct 25 2004, 10:10 PM
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sideways
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 10:16 PM


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FF is -always- the slowest in acceleration, from a stop, or a go, under hard acceleration they simply have much elss traction. True they dont lose as much power through the drivetrain, but were talking a few % difference. thats just a -few- horsepower.

A few horsepower wont make the difference, its all about traction.

RR/Mr have a big advantage in launch from a stop, i mean look at say top fuel dragsters, rear mounted engines which are 2 wheel drive. If awd was better at launch, im pretty sure they -too- would be. They have greta traction, minimal drivetrain loss, and their light weight.

AWD takes more torque to get going due to the excess bulk, but once its going it has superior traction to both push and pull the vehicle. awds downfall is its understeer exhibited in the corners.

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Oct 25 2004, 10:17 PM

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