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> exhaust manifod discussion.
s12drifter
  Posted: Mar 30 2013, 01:40 PM


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while looking around i found a titanium exhaust manifold for a RB20DET. ]

titanium loses it's strength after 408 Celsius?

would this be able to hold up at that race track? (not drag strip)

can a engine/turbo/exhaust manifold see beyond this in a hard application?

the reason i ask is because I want to make the engine as light as possible without destroying reliability. I.E aluminum alternator and power steering bracket, alum radiator, any where i can cut weight. (losing A/C is not an option)

This post has been edited by s12drifter on Mar 30 2013, 02:49 PM
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 30 2013, 05:43 PM


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Losing A/C is totally an option, and will amount to a lot more than an exhaust manifold ever could. I think you should stick with welded stainless tubes, because that's still a lot lighter than a cast design and it's proven to handle the heat. I don't know anybody who runs Titanium before a turbo.

What's the car? What are you doing with it? Competitive racing? Time attack?
s12drifter
  Posted: Mar 30 2013, 06:48 PM


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QUOTE (Cactus @ 1 hour, 4 minutes ago)
Losing A/C is totally an option, and will amount to a lot more than an exhaust manifold ever could. I think you should stick with welded stainless tubes, because that's still a lot lighter than a cast design and it's proven to handle the heat. I don't know anybody who runs Titanium before a turbo.

What's the car? What are you doing with it? Competitive racing? Time attack?

semi competitive racing and daily at the same time.

maybe a few time attacks here and there.

and this will be for a Z31 which really need to lose the weight .
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 30 2013, 09:08 PM


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Whatever money you'd spend on titanium is better spent on tires/brakes/suspension. What do you mean by semi-competitive? We talking Autocross? If you want to do wheel to wheel racing, there is no reason using it as a daily should even cross your mind.

Spend the money on a racing seat or two. An aluminum or carbon bucket will weigh almost nothing compared to the lazy boys OEMs like to put in.
backalleyracer
Posted: Mar 30 2013, 09:17 PM


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for the record

408 C = 766 F

you really think you're going to hit those temps at the track for an exhaust?

(the answer is no)

But if you are talking about exhaust manifolds and turbo's - then yes, turbo's can exceed those numbers... but you would want something durable rather than save a few grams.

P.S.

Titanium

atomic weight = 47.867
Titanium melting point = 3034 F
Density of Solid = 4507 kg m-3

Aluminum

atomic weight = 26.9815386
Density of Solid = 2700 kg m-3
Melting point = 1220.58 F

This is an exhaust you're talking about here - density strength doesn't truly apply unless you hit a wall and bend it.

As previously stated, there are better ways to spend money.

This post has been edited by backalleyracer on Mar 30 2013, 09:23 PM
drankNmollys
Posted: Mar 30 2013, 09:19 PM


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OP, why do you have an RB20 in your car?
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 30 2013, 09:32 PM


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QUOTE (backalleyracer @ 15 minutes, 17 seconds ago)
for the record

408 C = 766 F

you really think you're going to hit those temps at the track?

(the answer is no)

The answer is yes (or at least maybe). I've seen exhaust manifolds and turbos glowing a nice cherry red at 24 Hours of Lemons races before. That means the manifold and turbo were above 1200 F. Mild steel loses more than half its strength at something like 750 degrees, and stainless isn't exactly as strong as it is cold at those temps either, so you're probably not going to blow out a weld or anything with the titanium piece.

Still, go stainless and ceramic coat it if it matters to you, save the money for things that'll actually lower laptimes.
Spaz
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 10:17 AM


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QUOTE (backalleyracer @ Today, 12:17 AM)
for the record

408 C = 766 F

you really think you're going to hit those temps at the track for an exhaust?

(the answer is no)

At the manifold? He'll hit that cruising on the highway.

Hell, he'll hit that idling.

This post has been edited by Spaz on Mar 31 2013, 10:18 AM
backalleyracer
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 11:16 AM


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As it turns out, I read the post wrong, I thought he meant in the exhaust itself, not the manifold.
s12drifter
  Posted: Mar 31 2013, 11:53 AM


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QUOTE (drankNmollys @ Today, 1:19 AM)
OP, why do you have an RB20 in your car?

it's a RB and better then a sr20.

even though it's a 2 liter those 2 extra cylinders dont go to waste.

4 cylinder at 200hp = 50hp each cylinder.

6 cylinder @ 200hp = 33hp each cylinder, just by that the RB20 IS 2 times more reliable then a sr20 could ever be. and besides a 4 cylinder does not belong in z31. there was a RB20 that did 500hp on stock internals on nissansliva and ended up out lasting the shop the rebuilt it. to add.... the Z31 did have a option for a rb20 from the factory wink2.gif look up 200ZR.


VG30's are garbage engine and have a very narrow powerband, in order to make more power you have to spin them past 6k to 7 or 7.500 and those rpms you have serious risk of rod bearing failure because the oil pump cannot keep up with the oil needs. no one makes oil pumps or anything for the VG30.

aftermarket is limited. i can go on and on on why a 2 liter 6 cylinder inline dohc 4 valve per cylinder cam on bucket is better then a sohc 2 valve per cylinder rocker arm style v6 (the rb 20 exhaust valves are 27mm x2 so = 56mm. vg30=38mm in valve design alone the rb20 is better then a vg because it can flow more)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, Titanium is a no go? I read of aluminzed steel, for exhaust (after turbo)



This post has been edited by s12drifter on Mar 31 2013, 11:56 AM
MetalMan777
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 12:11 PM


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A lot of cheaper exhausts are made of aluminized steel. That doesn't make them any lighter, it's just a coating to help rustproofing. It only works for a few years in the rust belt. I recommend the lightest stainless exhaust you can find, or just custom make a turbo-back exhaust using a single 2.5" or 3" pipe and an off the shelf magnaflow for maximum cheapness.
Tygur
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 12:12 PM


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The Z engine VG30 was designed to have a flat, broad powerband...

And yeah the RB20 was an option in Japan but I heard wouldn't fit in US models because of the RHD-LHD issues. I'd personally want a 300ZR. Anyway, good luck with it, imho titanium isn't worth the price premium.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 03:31 PM


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QUOTE (Tygur @ 3 hours, 19 minutes ago)
And yeah the RB20 was an option in Japan but I heard wouldn't fit in US models because of the RHD-LHD issues.

That just means you aren't putting enough effort in. wink2.gif
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s12drifter
  Posted: Mar 31 2013, 08:36 PM


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I still do not understand why they didnt bring the skyline to america and re-badge it as godzilla. LOL
Tuskano
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 08:47 PM


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QUOTE (s12drifter @ 11 minutes, 22 seconds ago)
I still do not understand why they didnt bring the skyline to america and re-badge it as godzilla. LOL

We need a like button... that's awesome.
drankNmollys
Posted: Mar 31 2013, 10:48 PM


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QUOTE (s12drifter @ Today, 11:53 AM)
it's a RB and better then a sr20.

even though it's a 2 liter those 2 extra cylinders dont go to waste.

4 cylinder at 200hp = 50hp each cylinder.

6 cylinder @ 200hp = 33hp each cylinder, just by that the RB20 IS 2 times more reliable then a sr20 could ever be. and besides a 4 cylinder does not belong in z31. there was a RB20 that did 500hp on stock internals on nissansliva and ended up out lasting the shop the rebuilt it. to add.... the Z31 did have a option for a rb20 from the factory wink2.gif look up 200ZR.


VG30's are garbage engine and have a very narrow powerband, in order to make more power you have to spin them past 6k to 7 or 7.500 and those rpms you have serious risk of rod bearing failure because the oil pump cannot keep up with the oil needs. no one makes oil pumps or anything for the VG30.

aftermarket is limited. i can go on and on on why a 2 liter 6 cylinder inline dohc 4 valve per cylinder cam on bucket is better then a sohc 2 valve per cylinder rocker arm style v6 (the rb 20 exhaust valves are 27mm x2 so = 56mm. vg30=38mm in valve design alone the rb20 is better then a vg because it can flow more)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, Titanium is a no go? I read of aluminzed steel, for exhaust (after turbo)

Now that's just cute. I think it does belong in a Z31. As well as a Z32.
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The RB20 isn't taken very seriously in Japan. There some built ones out there but they rather just swap it out for an SR or RB25 tongue.gif
SRs can do the same on stock bottom end. Its all about the tune son.
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s12drifter
  Posted: Apr 1 2013, 07:17 AM


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QUOTE (drankNmollys @ 8 hours, 29 minutes ago)
Now that's just cute. I think it does belong in a Z31. As well as a Z32.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/f40_...zps02167bb3.jpg
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee417/...zps80b70035.jpg


The RB20 isn't taken very seriously in Japan. There some built ones out there but they rather just swap it out for an SR or RB25 tongue.gif
SRs can do the same on stock bottom end. Its all about the tune son.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/f40_...zps79835447.jpg

Nope SR's are garbage fanboi motor.


highest rb20 i know made 68xhp in ireland.

my RB20 WILL be a compound T3/HX35 wink2.gif cant do that with a V engine. at the end of the day engines are all pretty much preference.

SR's are a shitty designed engine. CA/RB/VQ/VR is a much more efficent engine, you have no rocker arms which means there no energy loss through cam through valve motion it's all direct.

VG30ET's/SR's/KA's are ALL limited by the shitty rocker arm design nissan used.

can't spin a SR to 12k and make power. there have been a few RB's in aus spinning to 12k not sure if N/A or turbo but thats a hell of a feat.
Spaz
Posted: Apr 1 2013, 07:21 AM


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QUOTE (s12drifter @ 3 minutes, 30 seconds ago)
can't spin a SR to 12k and make power. there have been a few RB's in aus spinning to 12k not sure if N/A or turbo but thats a hell of a feat.

You can spin ANY motor with a capable rotating assembly to 12k and make power with the right setup for it.
drankNmollys
Posted: Apr 1 2013, 11:21 PM


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QUOTE (s12drifter @ Today, 7:17 AM)
Nope SR's are garbage fanboi motor.


highest rb20 i know made 68xhp in ireland.

my RB20 WILL be a compound T3/HX35 wink2.gif cant do that with a V engine. at the end of the day engines are all pretty much preference.

SR's are a shitty designed engine. CA/RB/VQ/VR is a much more efficent engine, you have no rocker arms which means there no energy loss through cam through valve motion it's all direct.

VG30ET's/SR's/KA's are ALL limited by the shitty rocker arm design nissan used.

can't spin a SR to 12k and make power. there have been a few RB's in aus spinning to 12k not sure if N/A or turbo but thats a hell of a feat.

This post is hilarious! I forwarded it to one of the OG Japanese guys I know whos been building these cars since before anyone in the Florida fail knew about them and hes laughing his ass off. I guess you can stick to your RB20 but if I ever see you in person im going to laugh at you too! laugh2.gif

This post has been edited by drankNmollys on Apr 1 2013, 11:21 PM
backalleyracer
Posted: Apr 2 2013, 02:55 AM


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...

god dammit, don't feed the jdm fanboys!

MetalMan777
Posted: Apr 2 2013, 04:25 AM


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The BMW S1000RR uses rocker arms and it runs past 14,000 RPM.

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s12drifter
  Posted: Apr 2 2013, 05:21 AM


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QUOTE (drankNmollys @ 6 hours, 0 minutes ago)
This post is hilarious! I forwarded it to one of the OG Japanese guys I know whos been building these cars since before anyone in the Florida fail knew about them and hes laughing his ass off. I guess you can stick to your RB20 but if I ever see you in person im going to laugh at you too! laugh2.gif

It's laugh all you want smile.gif I dont need to please you, it's my car i do what i like with it, i dont need your approval. cool.gif

have fun POPPIN YO ROCKER ARMS AND BENDIN YO VALVES.
TTH
Posted: Apr 2 2013, 08:11 AM


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Don't forget that VTEC-module itself is a rocker-arm, still junk?

Besides, SR is much newer with aluminium block so it's much lighter and shorter so you would get better handling. Not sure which one gets better spool, RB20 has ridiculously short stroke so it might actually do worse than SR20 with less pistons. So if you're going to go through swapping an RB in there, just get RB25 or RB30 with RB25 head etc. RB20 is just not worth doing it.

Or just slap 1JZ in there. It's a bang for buck, takes the abuse all day long and gives decent power too.
s12drifter
  Posted: Apr 2 2013, 10:02 AM


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QUOTE (TTH @ 1 hour, 51 minutes ago)
Don't forget that VTEC-module itself is a rocker-arm, still junk?

Besides, SR is much newer with aluminium block so it's much lighter and shorter so you would get better handling. Not sure which one gets better spool, RB20 has ridiculously short stroke so it might actually do worse than SR20 with less pistons. So if you're going to go through swapping an RB in there, just get RB25 or RB30 with RB25 head etc. RB20 is just not worth doing it.

Or just slap 1JZ in there. It's a bang for buck, takes the abuse all day long and gives decent power too.

no... just the SR20.

aluminum block means that much less to make power. the FASTEST dragster 350Z is powered by a VG33DETT not a VQ.

it is going to be COMPOUND RB20 if you people do not understand that google compound turbocharging 101.

is it not a single, it is not a twin or sequential. it is a very unique funtional setup. look it up for the sake of this convo.

let me post a video for you actually. i dislike the RB25 seems cheap, dislike the VTC. either RB30 or 26.

YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Me6yWApzY )


YOUTUBE ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM7BhSfsO-k )


This post has been edited by s12drifter on Apr 2 2013, 10:26 AM
Sensation!
Posted: Apr 2 2013, 01:35 PM


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This thread is 5/5 stars.
Keep it up guys, the "my shitty Japanese motor is better than your shitty Japanese motor" is always good for a few laughs..

Backalleyracers post in this thread just about sums it all up. You aren't injecting kerosene into your turbo, there's really no need for a titanium manifold of any sort.
If you're building a track car, ditch every single part of your AC if you're so worried about weight.
And instead of buying titanium pipes, use the the money you save to buy a proper daily driver. Using a built track car as a daily will get tiring real fast; its simply a stupid idea.

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