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Views: 21,248  ·  Replies: 56 
> Myth Busting: Crossdrilled Rotors
BOZZ Savage
Posted: Jul 21 2006, 11:07 PM


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wow thanks for clearing that up... my dad and i actually had a discussion on this cross drilled slotted rotors thing and now i actually now the true answer...

sorry for reviving an old thread. sad.gif
DALAZ_68
Posted: Aug 21 2006, 12:35 PM


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stupid question but.....



is the surface of the disk increased (from say a 7 diamater to a 10 diameter ) becuase of the decrease in the surface due to the slotted/ crossdrilled ?!!?


in other words because u have gaps/ holes, u compensate by increasing the surface amount??!!?

i wonder if anyone understands my queston sweatingbullets.gif
Frost
Posted: Aug 21 2006, 05:40 PM


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Well, mathematically if you drill holes into the surface, you lose that surface area. So when you increase the disc diameter and keep the hole density (holes per unit surface area) the same, you will increase the surface area.

Frost
DALAZ_68
Posted: Aug 22 2006, 04:09 PM


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QUOTE (Frost @ Yesterday at 6:40 PM)
Well, mathematically if you drill holes into the surface, you lose that surface area. So when you increase the disc diameter and keep the hole density (holes per unit surface area) the same, you will increase the surface area.

Frost

so... is that a yes to wut i said blink.gif lol
BOZZ Savage
Posted: Aug 26 2006, 02:00 PM


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lol
Batmanbeyon
Posted: Aug 26 2006, 02:36 PM


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that is a long first post all i have to say is that i seen the cracking happen before on corss drilled back when i was in cali doing the canyon thing some peoples brakes got so hot from going from no braking to full braking on and off and since it's not like at the track your on them a lot so a lot so that cooling and extreme heat was bad of people just have slotted.
Rudy
Posted: Sep 18 2006, 06:22 PM


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sideways
Posted: Sep 19 2006, 12:40 AM


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QUOTE (Batmanbeyon @ Aug 26 2006, 04:36 PM)
that is a long first post all i have to say is that i seen the cracking happen before on corss drilled back when i was in cali doing the canyon thing some peoples brakes got so hot from going from no braking to full braking on and off and since it's not like at the track your on them a lot so a lot so that cooling and extreme heat was bad of people just have slotted.
sideways
Posted: Sep 19 2006, 12:41 AM


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QUOTE (Batmanbeyon @ Aug 26 2006, 04:36 PM)
that is a long first post all i have to say is that i seen the cracking happen before on corss drilled back when i was in cali doing the canyon thing some peoples brakes got so hot from going from no braking to full braking on and off  and since it's not like at the track your on them a lot so a lot so that cooling and extreme heat was bad of people just have slotted.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Punctuation

This post has been edited by sidewaysgts on Sep 19 2006, 12:42 AM
HorizontalMitsubishi
Posted: Sep 19 2006, 10:01 AM


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THE DOUBLE POST, ITS SOOO ANGRY!!!
sideways
Posted: Sep 19 2006, 01:27 PM


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user posted image
TRD-hachi-roku
Posted: Sep 23 2006, 01:07 PM


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you want more good braking power? replace your old jankyass master cylinder, and brake booster, then get yourself some nice new blank rotors, sport/ street pads (if it is still a street driven vehicle), ss brake lines, good brake fluid, bleed the shit out of the system.

that way you will have refresh most of the components on your braking system, not only will you have better brakes, but safer ones too...what good is 3000$ big brake kits...when your master cylinder is leaking like a lil bit**?
DALAZ_68
Posted: Oct 10 2006, 12:57 PM


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QUOTE (Midnight Dorifuta @ Sep 18 2006, 07:22 PM)
Essentially, yes. Check out sport bikes with "pepperoni pizza" rotors as evidence.

blink.gif blink.gif i du get it ? blink.gif blink.gif
Force Fed Mopar
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 09:54 AM


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So, what I've heard of cars w/ blanks out-braking the same cars w/ X-drilled rotors because the XD'd rotors wouldn't come up to temp enough could be true? or false? I agree that good pads and fluid make a much bigger difference than drilled rotors.
sideways
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 02:42 PM


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Xd'ed rotors also have less surface area in contact with the pad
Akira
Posted: Jan 1 2007, 06:57 PM


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So I imagien then, because according to physcis.., having cross drilled and slotted rotors just adds the effects? Sounds like amazing braking but maximum pad wear..
Not exactly what we all need...
Inygknok
Posted: Jun 13 2007, 10:08 PM


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Okay, got sleepy half way through. Kudos to Nick for posting all that info (first time in my life I have seen that much info about brakes in one place, and I have seen a lot of info).


I'm sure everyone already understands the purpose of drilling brakes. Unsprung weight, but they crack, yadda yadda. EOS.


Now, slotted rotors. I don't know if someone mentioned this after I stopped reading, but here is a little factoid. The little slots act like a very fine knife cutting away the pads bit by bit. You can barely notice it, but it's true.


As for the brake fluid. ALWAYS study up on the fluid you want to use and NEVER mix it with old fluid. They all have different operating temps and quite a few of them get easily contaminated with humidity. Yes. Everytime you open up the cap, even if just to have a look, a little bit of humidity mixes with the fluid and it ruins it. As easy as it sounds, as easy as it gets ruined. Some are very well made and don't get spoiled that easily, but it still happens. Companies should have charts of how their products stand up to these conditions. Give them a call. And if the bastards won't say, Google is your friend.


As for pads glazing, it's generally due to their materials. Other times, the pads and discs themselves aren't up to the work of constant hard braking and glaze, and may even catch on fire (seen it in person, what a riot). This is why super cars usually opt for ceramics, and why F1 cars use carbon fiber.


Someone said that using smaller discs meant using smaller pads...... not completely true. You do need to use a pad that won't actually overshadow the disc, but doesn't always have to be the case. Some people get slightly larger discs while still using the stock caliper/pad. It really depends.


TRD-hachi-roku: Replace the brake booster? Do you know how much those cost? It is generally rare for one to actually break. Replacing parts that are still functioning properly is just throwing money into the garbage due to lack the ability to inspect things properly. No offense. Also, you forgot to mention obtaining brake calipers with more clamping force. Better pads and better/new discs help, but they won't work as well as some people would like to believe without opting for a stronger caliper wink2.gif

Only problem.... buying aftermarket calipers is one, f**king expensive ordeal..... so, people wanting to get stronger calipers, just use Google and try to see what better calipers from other cars can mount up to your current one with some mild mods grin2.gif
SR5Sedan
Posted: Jun 22 2007, 08:31 AM


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Gimme a brake!

I'm cheap.

Rather than think about slotted vs. drilled, think about this:

1) Brake fluid is the most important part of a braking system. Change it and upgrade it, and make sure you bleed it properly, hammer it, and check it again.
2) A good tool is available from your local Radio Shack. It's an infrared thermometer. Point it at your left brake and right brake after a session of hard driving and the temps should be the same.
3) Your rim choice affects your brakes more than your rotor choice.
4) Both slotted and drilled rotors use more pads that a fat woman during her period.
5) For most reasonable (even race) circumstances of the time, smooth rotors only lose on a cold, wet, rainy course to the other two.
6) Proper brake bias is more important than slotted vs. drilled.
7) I know a fanboy who can prove w/a lot of finite element analysis that slotted+drilled is the "ultimate."
Dakai
Posted: Jun 22 2007, 08:46 AM


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What about wave? It's a new type of rotor used on racebikes.
SR5Sedan
Posted: Jun 27 2007, 01:15 AM


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I'll ask my bike mechanic about the wave thing.

It looks like it's good for show, or maybe on bikes, but my eyeballs scream that there's not enough material there to do the job.

Bike rotors get a lot more air than car rotors, so the wave thing might work on bikes. I'd be surprised if they ever show up on cars because of warpage and durability issues.
But she looked 18 of..
  Posted: Jun 27 2007, 07:32 AM


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QUOTE (Jimmy Pribble)
Wave Rotor Patent

For teh lazy:

QUOTE
Quote:
United States Patent 6,386,340
Milesi , et al. May 14, 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motorcycle wheel brake mechanism


Abstract
A brake disc for a wheel constituted by a peripheral section, forming a brake band with an interior form enabling it to be fitted to its wheel, the brake band forms two lateral flat and parallel surfaces on which a brake shoe can act, said peripheral section having a series of off-sets on its inside and outside edges.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors: Milesi; Giorgio (Goleta, CA), Milesi; Umberto (Barcelona, ES), Milesi; Alfredo (Barcelona, ES)
Appl. No.: 09/490,042
Filed: January 24, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current U.S. Class: 188/218XL ; 188/17; 188/264R
Current International Class: F16D 65/12 (20060101)
Field of Search: 188/17,18R,18A,26,218XL,264A,264R,264D D12/180



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References Cited [Referenced By]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Patent Documents

2533480 December 1950 Leininger et al.
2850118 September 1958 Byers
2987143 June 1961 Culbertson et al.
3081842 March 1963 Zindler et al.
4848521 July 1989 Izumine
5358086 October 1994 Muller et al.
5850895 December 1998 Evrard
6164421 December 2000 Nakamura et al.


Foreign Patent Documents

WO 00/50109 Oct., 1999 WO

Primary Examiner: Oberleitner; Robert J.
Assistant Examiner: Williams; Thomas J.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Arnhem; Erik M.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claims

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What is claimed is:

1. A motorcycle wheel brake mechanism comprising:

a brake disc attachable to a motorcycle wheel, and

a brake pad assembly carried by the motorcycle frame for frictional engagement with said brake disc;

said brake disc having two flat uninterrupted annular side surfaces, an inner edge connecting said flat side surfaces, an outer peripheral edge connecting said flat side surfaces, and mounting elements (2) extending from said inner edge for locating said brake disc in an exposed position on a motorcycle wheel;

said brake pad assembly comprising opposed brake pads (3) located along the rotational path of said brake disc for pressurized frictional contact with said flat side surfaces;

said brake disc having a rotational axis coincident with the wheel rotational axis;

the outer edge of said brake disc having an endless circular wave shape concentric around the disc rotational axis; said outer wave--shaped edge comprising recurring wave peaks and valleys spaced different radial distances from the disc rotational axis, said peaks being located on a first imaginary outer circumferential line centered on the disc rotational axis;

the inner edge of said brake disc having a circular wave shape concentric around the disc rotational axis,

said inner wave--shaped edge comprising recurring wave peaks and valleys spaced different radial distances from the disc rotational axis, the recurring valleys on said inner edge being located on a second imaginary circumferential line centered on the disc rotational axis;

each said brake pad having a radial dimension that is substantially the same as the radial spacing between the first and second imaginary circumferential lines, whereby the brake pads encompass the outer and inner edges of the brake disc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OBJECT OF THE INVENTION

As its title suggests, this invention refers to a brake disc for motorcycles or the like, with a series of constructional features on the peripheral part forming the brake band.

BACKGROUND TO THE INVENTION

Motorcycle brake discs generally have an external section which is ring-shaped, flat, and not very thick, on which the brake shoes operate; this external section forms the brake band. Said discs also have an interior form designed to allow them to be fixed on to the wheel. This interior form and the exterior section may be a monobloc unit or may be joined in such as way as to permit expansion of the outer section so that it will not become deformed when it heats.

One of the problems of such discs arises precisely from the heating they experience during braking so that, normally, the exterior part has a number of openings through it to facilitate cooling.

On so-called road motorcycles, the discs reach very high temperatures because of the speeds involved, so that the openings in the brake discs are important in facilitating cooling, should water get into these openings, it evaporates virtually instantly thanks to the high temperature of the disc.

However, on cross and trial motorcycles, these openings have advantages in terms of reduced weight, but they do have significant drawbacks when mud gets into them since it is unable to be released because the disc turns at a much slower speed than on road motorcycles.

A DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

To overcome these problems, particularly on cross and trial motorcycles, the brake disc which is the subject of this invention has been designed with a number of constructional features on the peripheral section forming the brake band. These discs are preferably constructed by laser cutting, made from a high carbon stainless steel mixed material, based on 420 stainless steel materials.

In this invention, said peripheral part of the disc does not have inside holes, so that the problem of the accumulation and retention of mud inside them is overcome; said peripheral section also has a series of off-sets on its inside and outside edges of the same thickness as the rest of the section so as to reduce the total weight of the disc, facilitate its cooling and prevent mud from being retained inside.

Said off-sets on the inside and outside edges of the peripheral section of the disc are preferably arranged alternately so that the width of said section is substantially constant. As a result, during braking the contact surface of the brake band with the shoes hardly alters with the rotation of the disc; otherwise, braking may be intermittent and may vary according to the area of contact between disc and shoes.

To ensure uniform distribution of the disc mass, the inside and outside off-sets are distributed evenly on the periphery, in alternating form.

A DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS

To complete this description and aid in a better understanding of the features of the invention, these Specifications are accompanied by a set of drawings, forming an integral part hereof and where, by way of illustration and without limitation, the following is shown:

FIG. 1 is an elevated view of a variant of the design for the brake disk which is the subject of the invention, with the running band of sinusoidal form; this figure also shows the outline of one of the brake shoes, with a broken line.

FIG. 2 shows a design variant partially showing the peripheral section of the disc, in this case with substantially trapezoid-shaped off-sets.

A PREFERRED EMBODIMENT OF THE INVENTION

As can be seen from the aforementioned figure, the brake disc which is the subject of the invention comprises the usual peripheral section (1) forming the brake band, with an internal form (2) to enable it to be attached to its wheel.

As shown in FIG. 1, said peripheral portion (1) is a single solid block, with off-sets (11 and 12) on its inside and outside edges, distributed along those edges, and displaced at an angle to each other, so that the inside off-sets (11) are in the area between two consecutive outside off-sets (12); as a result, said peripheral section (1) is substantially the same width (d) throughout its length.

This constant width of the section (1) ensures that, during braking, the contact area between said section (1) and the brake shoes or pads (3) is constant; otherwise, braking might be intermittent, precisely because of the variations in the area of contact between the two elements.

The arrangement of the inside off-set (11) and their outside counterparts (12) not just helps to cool the disc, but also prevents mud or other elements which might negatively affect braking from accumulating on it.

As the figures show, the inside and outside off-sets (11 and 12) may be rounded, with section (1) taking on a sinusoidal form as in FIG. 1; or they may have different shapes as in the design variant in FIG. 2 where the off-sets (11a and 12a) are substantially trapezoid-shaped.

It will be noted that the inner and outer edges of brake disc 1 have endless circular wave shapes concentric around the disc rotational axis. Each wave--shaped edge comprises recurring wave peaks and valleys spaced different radial distances from the disc rotational axis. The peaks on the outer wave--shaped edge are located on a first imaginary circumferential line that passes across the outer edge of each brake pad 3. The valleys on the inner wave--shaped edge are located on the secondary imaginary circumferential line that passes across the inner edge of each brake pad 3. With the illustrated arrangement the brake pad encompasses the outer and inner edges of the brake disc, so that each side surface of the brake disc has maximum engagement with the associated brake pad. As previously noted, the wave--shaped inner and outer edges facilitate turbulent air cooling of the brake disc, without tending to accumulate mud debris on the friction surfaces.

It is not considered necessary to extend this description in order for any expert in the field to understand the scope of the invention and the advantages arising from it.

The terms of these Specifications must be taken always in the broad sense, without limitation.

The materials, shape, size and layout of the elements may be changed provided that this does not involve an alteration to the essential characteristics of the invention, claimed below.


I couldn't get the drawings to work.

Anyway, the easiest way to talk somebody out of these things, is to explain that they are gay. If that doesn't work, show them the patent, in which it is explained very clearly that these rotors are designed for "cross and trial motorcycles." If that doesn't scare them off...well, I'm not sure what can be done. I suppose you could start talking about thermal capacities and friction coefficients of SS vs. iron, but I get the feeling that somebody who wants "brake flowers" is going to get bored quickly with your technical mumbo jumbo.

I found a diagram of the Revolution brake rotor (similar to "wave") in a 1998 book called Braking Systems (Mike Mavrigian & Larry Carley). This is their comment:

QUOTE
"This super lightweight aluminum "Revolution" rotor from The Brake Man is a good example of how skeletonized a rotor can be and still perform. This style rotor can be used in some midget and sprint applications. Naturally, due to its light weight and minimal mass, this style of rotor is only suited to braking applications where braking demands are relatively light."

This is what The Brake Man has to say about his own rotor:

QUOTE

Although the "REVOLUTION", has been specially designed and treated to take greater loads than would normally be capable by a steel rotor, it still is limited in where it should be used. If the "REVOLUTION", won't handle the track, then at that point, cast iron is more than likely your only choice.

By all accounts, it sounds like this style of rotor is for very specific applications only (cited: cross and trial motorcycles, midget and sprint cars). Outside of those specific applications, it is unlikely that these rotors are better than standard round rotors and could even be unsafe in some conditions.

Here, let's give the inventor a chance to sell his product. Okay Galfer, bring the tech!

QUOTE

Why should you buy Galfer Wave Rotors:

Cost less than OEM, OEM are not Wave.


OEM are not Wave? Does one of our Haiku experts want to step-in here?

QUOTE

Used by many TOP race teams. Have the parts guy open any magazine.

Maj. Eaton: We have top men working on it now.
Indiana Jones: Who?
Maj. Eaton: TOP... men.

QUOTE

Galfer advertises in a constant basis in magazines such as MXA, Dirt Bike, Transworld Magazine, Dirt Wheels, Cycle World or Road Racing World. We are out promoting our products.

rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Quality and longevity of the rotors, these are the “Ferrari” of the brake rotors.


And by Ferrari, we mean a Ferrari equipped with Brembo rotors.

So, we are to buy their rotors because they advertise in magazines? Is that the best tech we can get from the inventor of these things? BTW, it appears that the Wave and the Revolution were developed independantly, so there might be significant differences in their construction and applications (obviously, cars vs. bikes). I lumped them together, since they are both brake flowers. Check the specific manufacturers for information.


Cheers,

Jimmy


More tech:

Wilwood scalloped rotors

QUOTE

Wilwood's ULD - 32 drilled and ULS - 32 scalloped iron rotors provide two highly effective lightweight options for sprints, late models, modifieds, and other competition applications that race in low to medium temperature ranges.


More support for this type of rotor only being used for specific, light-duty applications.


This post has been edited by But she looked 18 officer on Jun 27 2007, 08:33 AM
Mbius
Posted: Jun 27 2007, 07:38 AM


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Time for me to google this "wave" technology. wink2.gif
But she looked 18 of..
  Posted: Jun 27 2007, 08:40 AM


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QUOTE (Manfred von Karma @ Today at 9:38 AM)
Time for me to google this "wave" technology. wink2.gif

be wary of fine print.
Inygknok
Posted: Jun 27 2007, 01:56 PM


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QUOTE (Manfred von Karma @ Today at 7:38 AM)
Time for me to google this "wave" technology. wink2.gif

I think I'll tag along. I hadn't heard of this before. Then again, I'm not a bike guy.
But she looked 18 of..
  Posted: Jun 27 2007, 04:25 PM


I put the F U in FUN
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What no reply or thoughts on what I posted? tongue.gif

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