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> supercharged vs turbocharged
S15-guy
Posted: Aug 24 2003, 01:06 PM


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pretty much any car can be, but it would more than likely require a lot of custom fabrication, and would probably be cheaper (and achieve better results) to either do an engine swap or buy another car.

You also would need to upgrade stuff like injectors and fuel pump etc to make it work.
(RxR) .::DarkWoofer::.
Posted: Aug 24 2003, 01:11 PM


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Ok, so it don't really worth it... (sorry i don't know how to say this in english, i hope it's like this tongue.gif)
Mirage4G63T
Posted: Aug 28 2003, 12:59 AM


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I would like to make a comment about the INITIAL D anime.

They have mentioned that the Lancer Evolution 4 has a twin turbo which is not true if not altered. The Lancer EVO series never came with a twin turbo setup. I think, even the actual rally cars didn't used that setup. The LanEvo series uses a single BIG 16G turbo. That kind of turbo can spool up easily just like small turbos and has a Killer kick at top ends.
In fact, all 4G63T equipped cars uses single turbos. For those who don't know, the 4g63t engine is used on Lancer Evos, 6th Generation Galant VR4's, Eclipses,DSM Lasers, Eagle Talons. It has different variants and in stock form the EVO series has the strongest HP rating at 260-280hp and can be modded up to 500+HP. In my thought, this is the most tuneable and definitely one of the strongest engines Mitsubishi has ever built.

In my memory, Mitsubishi cars that came with the twin turbo setups are the 6 cylinder engine cars. These are the 7th and 8th Generation Galant VR4's with a 6a12TT,6a13TT engine. Another is the 3000GT vr4 or the GTO. It has a 6G72 engine. All of these cars are AWD monsters and produces HP between 280-300hp+
Raiden
  Posted: Sep 2 2003, 01:33 AM


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QUOTE (S15-guy @ Aug 24 2003, 11:36 AM)
you cant use an intercooler on an NA engine, the intercooler is there because after the air is compressed by the turbo (or superchager) it is MUCH hotter, which hurts performance (the colder the air, the more dense it is, therefore it burns better) , so the air runs though the intercooler to cool it down before it enters the engine.

hope that helped!

intercoolers cant be used on naturally aspirated cars? i think ive seen a couple of civics driving around with intercoolers behind the front spoiler. are they just there for looks?
S15-guy
Posted: Sep 2 2003, 10:12 AM


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QUOTE (Raiden @ Sep 2 2003, 02:31 AM)

intercoolers cant be used on naturally aspirated cars? i think ive seen a couple of civics driving around with intercoolers behind the front spoiler. are they just there for looks?

its all just for looks, and its a phenomenon that we call 'rice': where people would spend money to make their car LOOK like it goes fast.

they are normally the same people that have a 5" exhaust pipe, an enormous wing, and a speaker that makes a blow off valve sound.
Raiden
  Posted: Sep 3 2003, 03:57 AM


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lol...oh yeah i've read about those "naturally aspirated blow off valves"- do they actually operate everytime u take your foot off the accelerator like the proper thing?
zeo
Posted: Sep 16 2003, 12:22 AM


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I hope this sheds some more light, lots of good stuff already posted.

Supercharging, turbocharging and Nitrous are all basically the same thing. Forced Induction. Engines basically contain a controlled burn, hence internal combustion. I'm going to simply this a bit, all car engines are 4 stroke motors so I might skip a stroke. First your intake valve opens up and in sprays a air/fuel mixture. Then the piston comes up, compression stroke, and compresses the mixture. Spark plug goes off and ignites the mixture and it burns evenly from closer to the spark plug to the piston. This burning front, continues outward and all the expanding gas pushes the piston down. From that you get work, turning crankshaft, differentials, driveshaft...whatever.

It's important to understand that first before you get the concept of forced induction.

What forced induction does is use an air compressor to increase the density of the incoming air/fuel mixture. You get more air, not necessarily fuel sometimes and this will be bad...very bad. But I'll mention that later. You can really think of the entire engine as an air pump. With a higher density of air, you can add more fuel. Thus creating a more potent mixture.

Your stock fuel injectors can handle most of the fuel requirements, turbo engines come with larger fuel injectors to handle increase fuel requirements of this denser fuel/air mixture. But once you reach a certain point, depending on the size of the turbo, you'll be pumping in an imbalanced air/fuel mixture. It's a ratio, which is different for every setup. Once this happens you could get detonation. Meaning instead of a predictable burn, the entire fuel/air mixture simply explodes. This is bad. So if you add a turbo, make you're fuel injectors are large enough to support the amount of boost you intend to use. Just a warning.

Now that you know that I'll go in to a SC and turbos. Turbos have higher potential than SC b/c of the size of the turbine housing. The size of the housing determines the size of the intake charge. SC use a fixed size air compressor to compress the intake charge. Oh yeah and there 2 types of SC as well. A roots type and centrifugal type...I'm not gonna go in to that. Generally, if you want to run more boost with a SC, it starts to get big real fast and you just don't have the room under the hood for it. The SC is also powered directly by your car's electrical system so it comes on right away, as soon as you step on the peddle. Top fuel dragsters use SC's.

Turbos have a "lag" associated with them and that's the time the turbine takes to spool up to power the compressor for the intake charge. Now you should see a problem. Inertia. The larger the turbine housing, the larger the turbine required to power it, the more rotational inertia is has. What's this mean? More lag. It'll take more exhaust gas going through the turbine to spool it up. This is why companies use twin turbo setups to reduce lag. Smaller turbo = smaller turbine = less rotational inertia = less lag.

Sometimes you'll see some twin turbo setups that use a smaller turbo and larger one. But the vast majority of the time you'll just see 2 of the same size. Why? Mostly cost really. Remember we're talking economies of scale here. The CT26 turbo that was in the Turbo MR2's was also the same turbo used in the Celica All Trac, and the same used in the 2nd generation Supras. In addition to that, 2 turbos will give you a much more predictable torque curve. That's why Porsche turbos use 2 instead of 1 as well. Sure a sudden surge of power is fun, but it's not particularly driveable.

Ok, so if 2 turbos are so nice, then why use 1? This is best answered by the amount of exhaust gas that a smaller engine can move, compared to a larger engine. 6 cylinders can move a lot of exhaust the 4. So it's really a matter of being practical. Plus, when you add more parts, like more turbos, that increases the # of parts that can break. So a single turbo is also more reliable than a twin setup, and far simpler to design and manufacture.

I should mention some of the fastest drag Supras replace the twin turbos with a single large turbo...and I mean big. Really big. I think a T-88's circumference is larger than a basketball's. To solve their lag problem, they usually use nitrous to get them going, by that point there's enough exhaust to spool up the huge turbo.

The WRC, world rally car championship, cars all use 4 cylinder turbocharged engines, but I think the Peugeot uses a SC, and I know that turbo spools up at like 1800 rpm. So it's nearly instantenous. Basically choosing the proper turbine housing and turbine can really negate most of the turbo lag issues. My MR2 Turbo spooled at 2800 rpm. But the smaller the turbo, the smaller the intake charge will be. So small turbos have a head room issue, once they get up to the higher rpms, they don't perform as well.

So what should you go with? I suggest find someone who has designed a bolt-on turbo or SC kit for your car. That way they've already done all the R&D work on it for you. Now that doesn't mean you can't strike out on your own and build your own, but it does mean you'll have to do all the R&D and pay for it. This means you have to figure out if your injectors are large enough and you have to map out the new air/fuel maps for the engine. Your stock ECU will try it's best, but you'll never get the full potential from the system until you tune it.

For you Honda guys check out Jackson Racing, they do a lot of SC setups. If you want a turbo, try a Greddy system, tons of places sell their kits. Garrett is a turbo manufacturer, and they make a lot of the WRC turbos. That's a GT25, but I don't know the exact turbine housing size and turbine size.

Now if anyone's interested, I could also explain the WRC anti-lag system. That's what the Evo guy, sorry forgot his name the leader of the Emperors, uses in his Evo3.
netbizkit
Posted: Sep 18 2003, 05:15 PM


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yes please explain the anti-lag system, and wut would i have to do to put a s/c AND and turbo (I heard it was posible)
S15-guy
Posted: Sep 18 2003, 09:03 PM


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QUOTE (netbizkit @ Sep 18 2003, 06:13 PM)
yes please explain the anti-lag system, and wut would i have to do to put a s/c AND and turbo (I heard it was posible)

its possible, but its expensive, and its a comprimise to both systems
zeo
Posted: Sep 19 2003, 09:29 AM


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Hahaha...I can't believe someone here's crazy enough to try using a twin-charge system.

The anti-lag system is a pretty simple idea. It's not just parts, but also the ECU has to be programmed. In WRC cars, ALS, can be turned on and off with a switch. The reason to turn it off is b/c it does a lot of engine damage, specifically the exhaust manifold. When the system is engaged and the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal, the ecu changes the engine timing, usually rolled forward a couple of degrees. This allows an unburned portion of the fuel/air mixture to escape in to the exhaust manifold. When the driver hits the gas again, timing returns to normal. This in turn ignites the unburned fuel/air mixture in the exhaust manifold, actually causes it to explode. This is that bang-bang sound you hear from rally cars w/ ALS. The explosion will then spool up your turbo to full speed, allowing for full boost at the exit of the corner. They typically use it for corners.

Here's the bad news with ALS, rally teams generally replace the exhaust manifold after 200 miles if the driver runs w/ ALS on. The exhaust manifold can't take that much punishment for long and eventually just breaks apart. So it's not really viable for non-racing applications.

Now it is possible to twin charge your engine. Running both a SC and a turbo. Though you've managed to pick the single most complicated setup to engineer. It's not installing the equipment that's the issue, as long as you've got space under the hood that's not a problem. A couple of MR2 Mk1 drivers have done this. The 4AGZE is already has a SC so they just add the turbo.

The problem w/ twin charging is that there is a real problem controlling the switch over from the SC to the turbo. No system exists to date that can gradually taper off the boost from the SC and replace it with the turbo. All systems currently turn off SC, then turn on the turbo. Getting this timing right is pretty complicated and so you get this lag where you have no boost, then...BAM! The turbo kicks in and you take off again. Not really good b/c let's face it you want a predictable torque curve.

The only way I see to be able to control the setup would be to custom program your own ECU. Let me tell you, that sounds ridiculously complicated. Though I did think about doing it, since I have a lot of programmer buddies who thought the idea was really cool. But this post is getting long enough already.

So there are a couple ideas. Twin charging is very expensive, lots of tuning involved. You better be independently wealthy if you wanna try that. Not to mention, very patient.
1slowsupra
Posted: Sep 20 2003, 11:55 PM


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QUOTE (zeo @ Sep 19 2003, 09:27 AM)
When the driver hits the gas again, timing returns to normal.  This in turn ignites the unburned fuel/air mixture in the exhaust manifold, actually causes it to explode.  

I believe this part of your explanation is wrong. Hitting the gas does not ignite the unburned fuel in the exhaust manifold.

True the timing is advanced and fuel is leaked into the exhaust manifold, at the instant the foot is lifted from the gas pedal. Once that fuel is inside the manifold the extreme heat of the turbo&manifold ignite the fuel...thus, keeping the turbo spinning and in boost. These combustion's kill the manifold and turbo, and would lay waste to an OEM turbo set up in a matter of mins. From your statement you would hear the bangs when they accelerate, which is not true..the bangs are heard only in the corner where the foot is lifted off the accelerator.

netbizkit
Posted: Sep 21 2003, 10:30 AM


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would it be posible to have both s/c and turbo running at the same time?


P.S. im special

funixxx
Posted: Sep 21 2003, 11:34 AM


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QUOTE (zeo @ Sep 19 2003, 09:27 AM)
All systems currently turn off SC, then turn on the turbo. Getting this timing right is pretty complicated and so you get this lag where you have no boost, then...BAM! The turbo kicks in and you take off again.

The AW11 Turbo/Supercharger is a sequential setup, not parallel. Both run continously at WOT, and do not "switch" from one to another. The only switch in the system is the factory WOT activated clutch for the supercharger.

When boost from the turbo exceeds boost from the roots blower, a pressure regulated bypass valve opens to route boost around the roots blower. It is not a computer controlled system and the blower continues to push air.

On a side note, Turbo-Supercharged/Turbo-Compound engines have been used in aero engines since the 1930s.
zeo
Posted: Sep 22 2003, 11:22 AM


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Pretty cool, I didn't know that. But I have heard of a couple MR2 twin charge cars that have that issue, but I don't know how they have it setup.

When I had my MR2 Turbo I was interested in this kind of setup. It would have allowed me to run a bigger turbo without the associated lag. Would have been cool. But no one had done it with a 3sgte, so no info on it, I'm sure someone out there's at least pondered this with a 3sgte.
Keiichi Tsuchiya
Posted: Sep 22 2003, 04:16 PM


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I prefer turbos,the unpredictable boost can sort of be cool.If you've ever seen a drift exhibition,then you've seen how those turbo cars are.
dj Lott3
Posted: Nov 7 2003, 06:14 AM


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QUOTE (zeo @ Sep 22 2003, 11:20 AM)
When I had my MR2 Turbo I was interested in this kind of setup. It would have allowed me to run a bigger turbo without the associated lag.

Hey fellow previous MR2 owner wink2.gif Yah, I jes got a medium sized turbo to compensate for this. A nice GReddy 20G, the TD06-SH I think it was called...can't remember, it's been a while...but the turbo that seems perfect for the MR2 was GReddy's TD06 Level II kit...stainless and polished tubular exhasut manifold and an external wastegate for the boost creep. Guy @ ATS Racing is running w/ this set up (the guy I bought my car from) and he's putting 400 down to the wheels. Not too shabby eh? If you wanna check it out hit up their site.

But back on subject, HKS made a twin charge system for the MKI MR2s, so a few of the boiz that shelled out the green for it have it. I believe there was one in Sport Compact Car in their first Sport Compact Car Challege a couple years back, so yes it's possible, I mean there's 18 wheelers running 2 superchargers and 4 turbos blink.gif Hehe, but those are the salt flat specials ;P. Top speed for a Supra in Salt Flats 249, 18 wheeler 300+ Haha...strange strange world that we live in. happy.gif Jes makes it that much more interesting. Pz.
zeo
Posted: Nov 12 2003, 11:49 AM


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Nice setup you have on your MR2. A lot of guys choose the TD06 upgrade, and who can argue with it? 400 hp at the wheels is pretty damn fast. When does boost come on? Trying to remeber, but someone developed a turbo kit that used a Garrett dual ball bearing turbo, it spooled at 3300 rpm and the few guys who had it were putting down the neighborhood of 450 hp. Pretty slick.

As for the HKS twincharge kit, I've never seen an actual kit per se, but the twincharged MR2 you saw in the SCC Ultimate Street Car Challege was a Mk1. I believe that car ran a 4agze, which is more common for twincharging. Correct me if my memory is swiss cheese! It does that from time to time.

I miss torque though. Stock 4age is basically a torqueless wonder! But I have to admit, it has forced me to think of other ways of going fast other than hitting the gas pedal.
Andrezneo
Posted: Apr 24 2004, 03:36 PM


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As far as what cars can be turbocharged, anything can really, provided you have the bucks to pay for it. It's like anything else, if you have the money, you can turbocharge a Jeep Wrangler if you want to, just be prepared to pay a bunch for it. Don't forget that one of the more popular things to do here in the U.S. is turbocharging the 5.0 Mustangs that you see roaring around at night. I've seen more than a few putting out over 400 at the wheels on just basic bolt ons and a turbo. Quite interesting to hear that infamous 5 Liter roar followed up by the 'woosh!' when they are ripping through gears. And the 5.0's are not cars that people typically associate with turbos, people have just found out that the 5.0 just responds very well to forced induction of any kind. ALso, this is my first post here, so hi everyone : )

This post has been edited by Andrezneo on Apr 24 2004, 03:37 PM
sideways
Posted: Apr 24 2004, 04:51 PM


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You dont have to pay big bucks to modify the drivetrain and manifolds of a non-turbo car to put a turbo on it.. just put a smaller turbo on it.

AS for which i prefer: Na, maybe a supercharger. If you get a chance go to a drift competition.. turbos arent the "best choice" for it, and easily get beat by supers and NAs.. As a driver takes his foot off the gas to break fro the turn the turbo spools down- as they get to the apex they put their foot back on the gas (or..wherever.. not always the apex really.. EITHER WAY!) this causes the turbo to spool back up... and can give the car a suddent boost in hp through the turn, not really where yo uwant it becuase this boost of power can really mess up a cars turn.
Neo Xian Wu
Posted: Apr 24 2004, 06:26 PM


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well it's not really a matter of too much power coming on, it's more an issue of turbo lag. the turbo has to spool back up, like you said. turbos don't spool instantaneously (granted there are very quick spooling turbos, still doesn't mean boost is instant right when you hit the pedal). unlike a supercharger, which is in boost when you hit the pedal.
sideways
Posted: Apr 25 2004, 01:03 PM


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Yep yep, all i meant was if they spool up through a turn (a drift for example) it can change the attitude of a car while its drifting, and make it spin faster
AJS13
Posted: Apr 25 2004, 09:31 PM


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QUOTE (sidewaysgts @ Apr 26 2004, 10:03 AM)
Yep yep, all i meant was if they spool up through a turn (a drift for example) it can change the attitude of a car while its drifting, and make it spin faster

Yea I know what you mean by that, I went around a corner flooring it, and the turbo kicked in, and the whole rear-end slide out from under me. It hurt me because I didnt know it was going to do that, and the seat dug in to my ribs.
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Posted: Apr 26 2004, 08:12 AM


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it takes throttle modulation to keep the boost at a good level to where it doesn't send you out of control. a blow-off or bypass will aid in keeping the turbo spooled so you avoid lag coming out of the corner. the last thing you want is to go into a corner in front, then hafta wait for your turbo to spool up again when you exit. oh yeah, flooring it = bad idea unless your drifting.
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Posted: May 24 2004, 08:49 PM


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Yes almost any car can be equipped with turbos, in fact most cars have a turbo bolt on kit that you can buy. but, mostly what you see is civics, eclipses, rxs and so on. as far as supercharger and turbo:


a supercharger is constant air, it completely replaces your air intake system. Its constant air, but its not as powerful, kinda like; more power at the beginning. It runs off of belts and the engine power. So, you lose some power there. but basically more power at the beginning.


a turbocharger is not quite so constant air; it does not replace your air intake system, basically, the turbo is bolted, most times, on your exhaust manifold because that is what powers the turbo your exhaust. so, there is no power loss, because your are recycling your air from your engine through the exhaust housing and pipes connected to your problem. Only problem is, turbos need to gain boost, and it releases that amount of air into your cam shat, and boom horsepower. so, you get turbo lag, basically when you step on the gas pedal, there is usually like 2-5 sec delay, then your ass is in the backseat. turbo is usually for high end speed.

supershcargers are usually put on engines that dont really need a high end kick, for example v6 and up.

turbo chargers are usually put on anything less than a v6. the idea is, v6 and up, you have quick hard torque at the beginning but your acceleration lacks, so the super charger comes in giving you that extra added boost. dont get me wrong, it still gives you power, but high end it is less powerful. a turbo, for most v6 and below, you usually have great accerleration but, when you get to 70-80 you start to slacken and accerlerate slowly.

twin turbo applications:
the idea behind this is:
you have two turbo chargers, one big and the other large. this is the true constant air intake system. while your smaller turbo takes less time to spool, you get a quick boost at the beginning; all the time your bigger turbo is spooling up from the helacious amount of exhaust coming from your engine now, and when it spools it gives the boost. so, basically there is no lag and your moving quick.

i only go with twin turbo applications, because in theory and actuality it is the best. my eclipse with the twin turbo application will go from 0-120 in about 8-9 seconds depending on the shift methods.

brandon
sideways
Posted: May 24 2004, 09:25 PM


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id love to see that

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