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> Lets talk about what FFs can do..., Leave the drift debate at the door.
Jayson
Posted: Jun 17 2003, 12:04 AM


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I know there is a hure difference between Flick and Fient, but how did I explain Flick? and then when I said refer to flick when I was explaining Fient I was going by the definition I gave.

Obviously your a shmuck and didn't get the little joke and by me explaining it to you that makes you even more of a shmuck, and by wanting to know more about what FF's can do that makes you more of a shmuck, and by making me explain this more that makes you more of a shmuck.

But don't worry, every one here is a shmuck smile.gif
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 17 2003, 04:11 AM


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What a shmucking way of shmucking things...
Jayson
Posted: Jun 17 2003, 09:41 AM


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yeah, you know what I mean shmuck
cheevoon
Posted: Jun 17 2003, 06:07 PM


I'm juz Running in the 90's
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who is the least shmuck then?

you? are u sure?
Wheels84ss
Posted: Jun 17 2003, 06:53 PM


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What a front drive does well.

Save space, due to the enitre drivetrain being in one end.
Develop traction in less then great terrains (snow mud) because the weight on the drive wheels is higher then other platforms.
Allow for beginner drivers to gain knowledge, due to the relative price and availability of them (ie cheap and everywhere) it makes a car available to the finacially strapped.

These are about the only endearing qualities for the FF. Yes they can be built in to highly tuned race cars, but then again so can an old station wagon. Any material thing can be improved if you throw enough cash at it. But "wrong wheel drive" has two major downfalls. Not so much with the drivetrain but in the type of people it attracts, at least in the racing field. We'll leave commuter cars out of this because if all you use your car for is to commute, your not going to use 90% of the techniques discussed already.

FF's attract drivers that either A) want to "hook their cars up and make them Phat" or cool.gif people that aren't yet skilled in alot of techniques and think they can drive any car like an FF. This has given FF such a bad name in racing scenes. The "ricers" who think that because their civic with 140 horse can go full bore through a turn can do it with a camaro or supra.

Now yes I know there are exceptions to this rule, as there are to every rule, but thanks to these two types the FF is the bastard of the drivetrain family. FF has it's niche in the auto and racing world, but it's niche is that it's an all around average. It has no real clear dominace in any one realm. It's not a rally dominator like the AWD, it's not a corner carver like the MR and it's not a drift/drag king like the RWD. And that is it's best quality, it may not be a king of any of them, but it can also do all three which not may of the others can.

OH and by the way, the original mini coopers are a blast, everyone should drive one at least once.
Jayson
Posted: Jun 17 2003, 10:26 PM


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shmuck
bunta_boi
Posted: Jun 19 2003, 05:00 PM


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yah im not so fond of that word as i used to be.... ermm2.gif
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 19 2003, 06:51 PM


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That's what happen when someone use it as much as a Smurf use Smurf...
killerenergy
Posted: Jun 19 2003, 07:27 PM


Hi!
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appreciate this topic, great info biggrin.gif
got an FF too, looking forward to praticeing happy.gif
S15-guy
Posted: Jun 19 2003, 10:13 PM


dampachi!
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QUOTE (Rayp @ Jun 19 2003, 06:42 PM)
That's what happen when someone use it as much as a Smurf use Smurf...

smurfy comment dude
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 21 2003, 08:57 AM


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I'm a bit curious about how they manage to "powerslide" their FFs... I did try a few times but my own FF isn't much responsive to that (or maybe a bit underpowered).

But i do know a more impressive trick i call the counter-steer (powered)slide (dunno if it has a better name, at least i never heard anyone else doing it), a FF specific technique that need front traction to work... I'm curious if anyone can guess how i pull it off.

Perry
Posted: Jun 21 2003, 04:07 PM


Like an eagle!
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Lift Off ?
Proud Contributor of the Music Section Revival Project
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 21 2003, 08:32 PM


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QUOTE
Lift Off ?


Nah...

Let me explain it another way : Begin by accelerating and turning in, then make the rear slide in position while recentering the steering. The gas isn't released, the brakes aren't used.

Note, it work better on grass, dirt or snow, but still possible to pull off on dry asphalt...

Wheels84ss
Posted: Jun 23 2003, 03:32 PM


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Yea It's called a Donut and you do it in reverse.
Rayp
  Posted: Jun 23 2003, 05:58 PM


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Wrong again, i do it in forward motion smile.gif. Besides, a donut rotate the car around the Rear wheels, the technique i talk about does it around the Front wheels...

It's none of the well known FF techniques BTW.
Rayp
  Posted: Oct 24 2003, 02:38 PM


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QUOTE (Rayp @ Jun 23 2003, 05:56 PM)
Wrong again, i do it in forward motion smile.gif. Besides, a donut rotate the car around the Rear wheels, the technique i talk about does it around the Front wheels...

It's none of the well known FF techniques BTW.

Let's bring this thread back from the abys...

Well, since that no one ever answered my quiz, i'll just give the answer... The technique is to turn in and puposedly loose traction once well in then immediatly let the wheels realign themselves. When the wheels return to their center, they regain grip and the rear will be unsetled. Of course this is dependant on many factor, and it work well on snow, dirt, gravel than on dry asphalt. If the front never loose traction while turning in, it will never happen.

My Accord has too much grip now to use that trick on dry pavement, but it work wonderfully on dirt (as i did again lately). I belived before i was the only one using it, but i found one or 2 guys i know who do use this from time to time. Of course i'm probably the only one who do it as extensively whenever the occasion arise.
156GTAE86
Posted: Oct 26 2003, 05:43 PM


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i agree about the mini cooper.....

it's a blast to drive.

but wait, what about the new mini cooper s? or better still, the new mini cooper s works by john cooper?

a cheek bending, tear inducing blast to drive fast. it may be the most hilarious mini ever to be built (we know there are a few of them)

test driven it the other day, get this:- 200BHP1.6L supercharged engine all driven to the front wheel and not a trace of torque steer. that's one hell of a drivetrain.

and the rolling acceleration.., wow! in third at 160KM/H. you go from oh god to oh blimey!

if there is any car i would call point and shoot, this is it. superb!
Rayp
  Posted: Nov 8 2003, 04:50 AM


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Too bad there is not more interest in my last technique. I havent come up with a name for it (i doubt i has one already, at least never heard of it).

So, the complete explanation :

Come to the corner relatively slowly, once close to it, accelerate forward (enough for the rear suspension to compress), then turn sharply in the corner. Due to the extra weight in the rear and the lightened front, the car should understeer. Now the trick is to use the rebound grip that happen when the front loose traction and the rear uncompress. Return the steering and keep accelerating, the front will regain traction, the rear will snap around suddently. Work best in low traction environment like rain, mud, dirt, snow, but can work on normal asphalt.

While i have been experimenting with it for a long time, i haven't mastered it yet. Lets say it works against normal driving sense, when corner are comming we usually want to slow down, but this technique cannot work unless we accelerate hard, wich increase the fear of messing up...

On a side note, i even managed to pull it off while playing ID arcade, i ever thought it would work there but it did grin2.gif .
funixxx
Posted: Nov 9 2003, 12:09 AM


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I think what you are doing is simply lift throttle oversteer, but if you believe differently, please explain.

EDIT: Reread it again... so you didn't lift. It sounds like a mild version of a Scandinavian flick - i.e. Feint motion. You are using rotational momentum about the front wheels to induce oversteer.

Rayp
  Posted: Nov 9 2003, 05:58 AM


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QUOTE (funixxx @ Nov 9 2003, 12:07 AM)
I think what you are doing is simply lift throttle oversteer, but if you believe differently, please explain.

EDIT: Reread it again... so you didn't lift. It sounds like a mild version of a Scandinavian flick - i.e. Feint motion. You are using rotational momentum about the front wheels to induce oversteer.

Yeah, i know, it's so unlike what FF normally do, but it works. I don't know the full extent of it's uses since i don't have a track to practice it safely in all possible variation. The trick is to loose front traction when turning in, either by feeding more power (maybe clutch kicking) or turning in too much (and suddently) for the current speed. If done right, the rear will swing around due to the front wheel power.

It's done with full acceleration, with no need to feint (Well, some rotationnal force is needed, the more the better, so feinting might help a lot). My understanding of it is the rebound that happen when the car suddently loose acceleration. The car is already unballanced because of the turning, it need very little to break the rear, the front outside wheel just does it when it suddently regain it's grip.

It work fairly easily on dirt and such (little speed and power), but need a more brutal acceleration and a lot more speed to work on more grippy medium (with the additionnal risk that comes with this).

funixxx
Posted: Nov 9 2003, 05:43 PM


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So what you accomplish is lift off oversteer w/o actually lifting - i.e. forward weight transfer due to decreased acceleration as a result of the front drive wheels losing traction.
Rayp
  Posted: Nov 10 2003, 07:58 AM


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It's a bit more than that. When i loose traction, the car don't oversteer. It's when i regain it that the "magic" happen. Also if i use the clutch or shift when i first loose traction, no oversteer. So the power is needed, as well as the spring action... And last, the oversteer can be very quick, unlike a brake slide or a lift off oversteer, while moving at relatively slow speed (in the dirt or snow, it can be done with less than 30 km/h).

A side note : i discovered that manouver when i spun out twice in a row in the snow while taking turns at slow speed. It took me a while to understand what happened. I had worn out tyres in the rear at the time (just switched them from the front to the rear), that's why it happened so easily despite not using much power...

Toshi
Posted: Nov 10 2003, 10:26 PM


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iono ffs are fun to drive since they have good traction...left foot braking is a good techinique and honda does make decently tunable engines...there not great but they can go fast and if you dont need to drift there great..i just really hate torque steer thats sucks~!
Rayp
  Posted: Nov 11 2003, 06:43 AM


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Never had much experience with torque steer... The only time it happened to me was in the snow, or when my tyres were quite worn or something was wrong in the alignment. You need quite a lot of power before this happen on a regular basis, and an LSD is the best fix (few FF come with this stock though).

Alex
Posted: Nov 11 2003, 06:03 PM


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FF wasn't made to be a perfomance car but Honda/Acura made that a little less true by introducing the Type-R Integra and the Type-R Civic. Trying to do stuff like burn-outs in an FF car can hurt your drivetrain. But putting the e-brake on and pressing the gas is fun, lol.

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