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> Why do D1 cars have wings?
redgreen
  Posted: Nov 29 2008, 02:44 AM


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wings set up properly is supposed to produce downforce on the rear wheels in performance cars, which helps promote grip. grip is good for racing but since D1 is about drifting. why do all their cars seem to have wings?
sideways
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 02:52 AM


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To drift, you need grip.

SPOILER
backalleyracer
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 03:00 AM


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they need it to "cheat" and be able to scrape the wall easier laugh.gif

example ::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0draXSXvaI

wink2.gif
Meteor
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 04:06 AM


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The more grip you have, the faster your car can drift around corners (the drifts are judged on their angle, line and speed). It also makes it easier to keep the car under control. Then there's also the aesthetic value.

I think the wings are there mostly for the latter two reasons.
Sensation!
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 11:00 AM


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i dont think wings work as well when your sideways...
unless if its rhys millens gto wing, which iirc was designed for going sideways
MattW
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 11:15 AM


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Wings work better up to a certain point sideways, iirc.
Cyrus430
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 11:54 AM


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Control... I guess it adds a degree of control to the car.
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DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Nov 29 2008, 12:43 PM


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QUOTE (Meteor @ Today at 5:06 AM)
The more grip you have, the faster your car can drift around corners (the drifts are judged on their angle, line and speed). It also makes it easier to keep the car under control.

Correct. Granted drifting involves the car sliding around, the more grip you have, the higher speed you can drift at. So basically, you can have a car with low limits (not much downforce, all-season tires, etc.) drift at certain angles around a corner, but in that same car but with more downforce and stickier tires, you can drift in the same manner but at higher speeds due to its increased limits. This is what makes drifting so entertaining, because they're going fast.
Cubits
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 10:00 AM


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A big ol' GT wing makes for great advertising space! It isn't doing much else when sideways, the end caps are probably contributing more through the drag they create.

Any attempt at generating grip went out the window when the cars were dropped onto their tits, equipped with set cement for dampers, and held up by four very stiff tyres. The objective of this tuning is not for grip, but for the fastest and smoothest change of direction possible. Any stall caused by body movement is wasted energy.

Having slid around in a car that actually generates downforce (formula ford zetec), i can tell you that it is a bad thing to combine the two! Here's why:

A car with wings, travelling straight, generates downforce. This downforce adds to the load on the tyres without adding physical mass, which in turn allows for higher cornering forces.

When you start to yaw a car with wings at speed, the downforce very quickly disappears. This is because the air is flowing at an angle across the wing, reducing the effective length, causing air to stall off of the end caps, and changing the wing chord and profile. You are left with a large demand for lateral force which can no longer be met by the tyres.

Newton steps in with an inertial b*tch slap, and you subsequently leave the track.

Unless you're driving within the mechanical limit of the tyres, you can not drift a car that is dependent on downforce at high angles because your high entry speed becomes too fast as the car rotates. You can brake later in a straight line, and you can accelerate harder, but you can't drift faster with a straight GT wing.
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 10:33 AM


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Wings are still effective when drifting, just less so compared to when driving in a straight line. They would be ineffective if the car was COMPLETELY sideways, but that only happens if the driver messes up. Even if the car is traveling at a sharp drift angle, the wing still helps.
Spaz
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 11:05 AM


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The downforce also helps stick the ass-end when you get off the accelerator to end the drift. Without that extra downforce, suddenly ending a drift at an extreme angle will cause the car to fishtail.
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backalleyracer
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 03:56 PM


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my response seems to be the most accurate wink2.gif

This post has been edited by backalleyracer on Dec 1 2008, 03:56 PM
sideways
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 04:12 PM


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QUOTE (cmspaz @ Today at 12:05 PM)
The downforce also helps stick the ass-end when you get off the accelerator to end the drift. Without that extra downforce, suddenly ending a drift at an extreme angle will cause the car to fishtail.

Ill keep this short and just say W'at?
BOZZ Savage
Posted: Dec 1 2008, 04:20 PM


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I would agree with Sideways. The only thing keeping the wheels out that far is the accelerator being used to spin the wheels. Let off the accelerator then the sudden decrease of power will do the opposite.




Ian
biggamehit
Posted: Jan 6 2009, 06:43 PM


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not entirely true... the car does not snap right back unless you are putting in incorrect inputs and or you have a not so good rear end ( differential ) that makes the rear unpredictable. Suspension also plays a major part as you all know.

I battled the diff issue personally when i got to japan. I went from a welded fully locked diff in my 240 to a VLSD in my skyline... and well it sucked after about 3 sessions. I was able to drift, but i was held back and had to fight the car in some corners. Now i have a Nismo GT 2way LSD.................. DREAMY smile.gif

it also depends on many of the tracks you drift at.. there are point where you are not pressing the brake or gas for a second or so. momentum will carry you through.

there is two corners on the track that i drift at here in japan where you gets lots of speed and initiate using whatever technique you are comfortable with. Once you are sideways with the tires spinning, they will continue to do so. Once you press/blip the gas you are still at the point where your tires have exceeded the grip and the wheels will spin easily increasing angle and or setting you up for the next transaction.
S12 Guy
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 07:19 PM


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technically they dont have wings, they have spoilers.

Wings create lift which on a car is always bad.

Spoilers Create Downforce, essentially pushing the car down on the road, forcing the tires harder on the pavement, increasing their CoF and thus the car "grips" better. As long as air is flowing over the airfoil it is adding grip (and drag but thats for another time)

really though, wings on cars other than the AeroCar are decremental to performance
Hachi_Roku
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 07:26 PM


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NECRO-POST.....But wing and spoiler are loosely interchangeable terms....

This post has been edited by Hachi_Roku on Jul 24 2009, 07:27 PM
S12 Guy
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 07:36 PM


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QUOTE (Hachi_Roku @ 9 minutes, 26 seconds ago)
NECRO-POST.....But wing and spoiler are loosely interchangeable terms....

not to an engineer...

it wasnt on the second page, or deleted, it is still valid.
Hachi_Roku
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 07:45 PM


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Last post was over 6 months ago...and we're (most of us anyways) car enthusiasts, not engineers.
S12 Guy
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 08:14 PM


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if you want to see dead forums and necroposting got to amigaworld.net, yes i am one of those people..they have things that have been dead for many years..

and true most may not be engineers, but a wing is still not a spoiler and vice versa.
Mr. Shine
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 09:00 PM


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QUOTE (S12 Guy @ 46 minutes, 32 seconds ago)
if you want to see dead forums and necroposting got to amigaworld.net, yes i am one of those people..they have things that have been dead for many years..

and true most may not be engineers, but a wing is still not a spoiler and vice versa.

That doesn't excuse replying to a thread that's been dead for six months rolleyes.gif

You're the new guy here so we don't want to slam you, it's just that we don't do it here...
sideways
Posted: Jul 24 2009, 10:50 PM


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QUOTE (S12 Guy @ 3 hours, 30 minutes ago)
technically they dont have wings, they have spoilers.

Wings create lift which on a car is always bad.

Spoilers Create Downforce, essentially pushing the car down on the road, forcing the tires harder on the pavement, increasing their CoF and thus the car "grips" better. As long as air is flowing over the airfoil it is adding grip (and drag but thats for another time)

really though, wings on cars other than the AeroCar are decremental to performance

Youre right, to an engineer the term wing and spoiler is not interchangable. But to an engineer, wings do not only create lift. Yes wings and spoilers are indeed different, but both work in very different ways, and both are often found on cars.

Edit: Instead of playing the dance around the bush game ill just be blunt and get to the point. Spoilers work, in as simple as I can say, but redirecting air flow. Wings work by moving air around them at different speeds across their surfaces.

The TRD whale tail you find on rollas, or even the whale tail of a porsche- is an example of a spoiler. It redirects the turblant air, smooths it out, and moves it clenaly across the car. Contrary to what you said, good designed spoilers can increase downforce AND lower the drag of of a vehicle, because they keep it moving smoothly instead of letting it pile up into turbulant clumps. Even front airdams are a form of spoilers.

Now that big thing you see sticking up on the back of D1 cars, is a wing. It is inverted compared to an airplane wing, but it is a wing nontheless. Wings work by moving air around them. They use a curved surface to accelerate the air on one side, creating a pressure zone. This pressure zone pushes against the surface, and a force is made. Lift if its on the bottom pushing up, downforce if its on the top pushing down.

Another fun bit to think about, good designed wings will even have spoilers on them.

Thread bumping is ok btw. I think the idea of daring to post something in an older topic is too taboo here, to an annoying level. Of course theres a line to it- dont just bump some year old thread to basilcly go "yup" to what someone had said. Bring something relevant to the topic and most, or at least I, wont mind. At least it shows youre looking around, i like that. And welcome to IDW btw.

This post has been edited by sideways on Jul 24 2009, 11:22 PM
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Jul 25 2009, 11:15 AM


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QUOTE (S12 Guy @ Yesterday, 8:19 PM)
Wings create lift which on a car is always bad.

Spoilers Create Downforce, essentially pushing the car down on the road, forcing the tires harder on the pavement, increasing their CoF and thus the car "grips" better. As long as air is flowing over the airfoil it is adding grip (and drag but thats for another time)

Regular wings do produce lift, hence why they are on airplanes. But clearly a wing on a car is not the same, it's inverted, so it produces downforce instead of lift (since the top now has higher pressure rather than lower pressure). From an engineer's perspective, a wing is always a producer of lift, but in the automotive world, wings on cars (spoilers, if you must) produce downforce. Obviously no one has ever put an actual "wing" (producing lift) on a car intended for performance.
BlackSubaru
Posted: Jul 25 2009, 04:16 PM


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yes they have, but only toperform as a wing, "lift" and not to create downforce. unless they were driving a car upside down. wink2.gif
Yoshida Seiji
Posted: Jul 25 2009, 05:06 PM


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Because they look cool.

That's all.

In D1 most cars rarely see the speeds needed for a big ass spoiler like the ones you see on most cars. Granted 90-100mph marks get good use out of those spoilers, but most courses over seas don't see those kind of speeds due to the sizes.

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