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> Lets talk about what FFs can do..., Leave the drift debate at the door.
Skv012a
Posted: Jun 13 2010, 10:15 AM


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I personally only give my props to tiny, zippy things like CRXs and the likes, but I still can't help but wonder how those would fly with FR/MR layouts. This is more of a weight debate than the drivetrain lol.
JaeMok
Posted: Jun 13 2010, 02:37 PM


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I remember there was this one guy with a del sol and he fit his engine in the trunk. It was a really cool, and in depth, build.
DigiBunny
Posted: Jun 21 2010, 06:54 PM


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An FF can haul ass through a tight corner and maintain the line easier using the throttle?

At least; that's the impression I get when I watch the Focus and FD from Tuazon Racing on the track. Correct me if I'm wrong.
JEV
Posted: Aug 31 2010, 06:26 PM


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Think it really just comes to OEM setup of suspension for the FWD.

I driven enough FWD that keep a line.

But, once in a while they would go wide, i don't like that.

Only car we've had that keep it's line so far no matter what, is our ford focus.

too bad the tranny repair didn't get "repaired" as expected $850 down drain,lol.(started not grabbing reverse)

Actually when wouldn't brake as much on a turn, it would start to kinda go wide.
Kelvin
Posted: Jan 23 2011, 05:51 AM


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FFs wont skid so easily during corners in the rain right? I find that most cars produced nowadays are FFs, or am I wrong?
MattW
Posted: Jan 23 2011, 07:55 AM


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hooray lift off oversteer.
JKaiba
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 07:45 AM


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QUOTE (Kelvin @ Yesterday, 5:51 AM)
FFs wont skid so easily during corners in the rain right? I find that most cars produced nowadays are FFs, or am I wrong?

FF cars if you hammer it will straighten out in the rain. This means they will have a tendency to understeer massively on heavy throttle cornering but they will be easier for a normal person to handle on say a rainy stretch of straight freeway. The main point of FF in the rain is the stability factor. They're still not as maneuverable than an FR but the idea with using FF in the rain on corners is you can stay on the throttle for longer and not end up losing control. Additionally the weight of the engine on the drive wheels can help keep traction. However because the wheels in the back don't have their own power, in rain they tend to have more of a hydroplane effect when you just allow them to spin naturally- the powered wheels can 'cut' through the top layer of water to get a firm hold of the road but the rear wheels will just go with whatever causes least resistance.

What Matt is referring to is the fact that if you are on throttle starting through a rainy corner, and then lay off the throttle, the front wheels which (proper tires assuming) were cutting through the top layer of water will grip the pavement a little better seeing as they have a contact patch with mostly gravel and not water while the rear wheels will end up hydroplaning since they have a contact patch over water and less gravel.

FFs are produced more today because it's the most cost effective drivetrain to mass produce. They have less parts because they don't need a driveshaft to the back of the car, they weigh less because they have less parts, because they weigh less they are more fuel effective, because they are more fuel effective the engine doesn't need to be as big or powerful- etc. Most non performance drivers consider FF easier to handle in a panic situation since pretty much the only thing you can do to control an FF in a non performance chassis is slow down more or crash. Which is easier for a panicking motorist to understand than- drive away from then turn back into and accelerate while steering towards the thing you are trying to avoid. Granted you can do nothing but decelerate in an FR too but in an FF there's not much else of a choice if you want to regain control.

This post has been edited by JKaiba on Jan 24 2011, 07:55 AM
MetalMan777
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 08:41 AM


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QUOTE (JKaiba @ 55 minutes, 55 seconds ago)
What Matt is referring to is the fact that if you are on throttle starting through a rainy corner, and then lay off the throttle, the front wheels which (proper tires assuming) were cutting through the top layer of water will grip the pavement a little better seeing as they have a contact patch with mostly gravel and not water while the rear wheels will end up hydroplaning since they have a contact patch over water and less gravel.

That's confusing. Liftoff oversteer is what happens when you shift the weight off the rear wheels during a moderate-high g turn. The easiest way to do that, in any car, is to suddenly get off the throttle.

Weight shifts forward and back depending on whether you're on the throttle or the brakes. Suddenly shifting it from one to the other will put more pressure on its respective tires, which corresponds pretty directly to grip. Ergo; suddenly less grip out back leads to hanging your rear out.
JKaiba
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 09:59 AM


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I was discussing more of why it happens. But yeah.
MetalMan777
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 05:54 PM


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Happens in the dry too, though. Rwd cars can do it as well, depending on weight balance.
MattW
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 05:55 PM


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QUOTE (Cactus @ 1 minute, 30 seconds ago)
Happens in the dry too, though. Rwd cars can do it as well, depending on weight balance.

Front wheel drive is greater known for it, and they do it spectacularly.
Bubs
Posted: Jan 24 2011, 06:45 PM


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I love pendulum turns* in an FF. That is all. w00t2.gif

*Scandinavian Flick, etc.
GokuFc
  Posted: Feb 13 2011, 04:25 PM


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ffs are good cars but if you want more horse power you need a Fr because ffs cant keep much bhp in front also if you drive like crazy and you drive a FF the ff is gona slide his nose if you dont know how to handle it on the other side if you drive a Fr with more than enough bhp you need enough free space in order to turn back.
in other words Frs are for drift and fun and performance!but the FFs can keep you safe at all times!i prefer the Frs i have a Fr right now but my previus car was a nissan 100Nx(FF) with around 147 horse power and it was sliding easily with the hand brake and also turning back easily i am not a normal driver so at the time it was what i wanted believe me it was fast enough!
also FFs can keep you safe if you are a normal driver who gets in the car only to go on his work! tongue.gif
also my favored FFs are the Alfa Romeo FFs!
chillined
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 05:47 PM


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^ Thanks tips.

For rediculous power, I'd just go AWD.
Cubits
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 07:15 PM


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The front wheel drive platform doesn't keep you safe at all times, that's just stupid. What keeps the millions of peons safe when they're driving their cheap boxes is the stupidity-proof setup (which could equally apply to a rwd). A performance oriented fwd is just as dangerous as any rwd. Often they have a shorter wheelbase, MUCH less rotational inertia, and turn in on three wheels.

Also, weight distribution has nothing to do with lift-off oversteer. Mid engined, and even rear engined cars are as famous for it as any fwd.

Thirdly, alfa romeo has sucked ever since they became fwd. There isn't a single good fwd alfa, they're all barges. The GTA's ruin the prestigious badge. :/

Fourthly, applying power to the wheels doesn't ward of aquaplaning. If anything, applying force causes the contact patch to stretch, deforming the tread block orientation and reducing the ability of the tyre to clear water. The only reason the rears on a fwd would aquaplane is entirely down to the weight distribution of the car.

But because the track width of most cars is fairly even front to back, the rears follow in the tracks of the fronts and don't have as much water to clear (which is why i've never had an issue with my rears aquaplaning).

Total myth.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 07:49 PM


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QUOTE (chillined @ 2 hours, 1 minutes ago)
For rediculous power, I'd just go AWD.

This.

Best of both worlds, I get understeer AND oversteer! Well, at least on the winters.
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GokuFc
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 05:14 AM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ 9 hours, 58 minutes ago)
The front wheel drive platform doesn't keep you safe at all times, that's just stupid. What keeps the millions of peons safe when they're driving their cheap boxes is the stupidity-proof setup (which could equally apply to a rwd). A performance oriented fwd is just as dangerous as any rwd. Often they have a shorter wheelbase, MUCH less rotational inertia, and turn in on three wheels.

Also, weight distribution has nothing to do with lift-off oversteer. Mid engined, and even rear engined cars are as famous for it as any fwd.

Thirdly, alfa romeo has sucked ever since they became fwd. There isn't a single good fwd alfa, they're all barges. The GTA's ruin the prestigious badge. :/

Fourthly, applying power to the wheels doesn't ward of aquaplaning. If anything, applying force causes the contact patch to stretch, deforming the tread block orientation and reducing the ability of the tyre to clear water. The only reason the rears on a fwd would aquaplane is entirely down to the weight distribution of the car.

But because the track width of most cars is fairly even front to back, the rears follow in the tracks of the fronts and don't have as much water to clear (which is why i've never had an issue with my rears aquaplaning).

Total myth.

ok nice opinion i dont disagree but you take me wrong

i mean ffs are more useful and safe for example to give it to your wife or on a kid who just taked his pass for driving!

also what you said about alfa romeos i am a owner of a alfa 145 1.7 boxer and its working just fine steering and everything also it has a very good grip and!
Its an Alfa romeo!
THE ANCESTOR OF FERRARI!!!
is there anything else disappointing you?
Not to mention about the boxer engines!
Cubits
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 05:49 AM


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The reason most ff's have safe handling is because the cheaper cars (that tend to be ff) are designed for unskilled people who need cheap transport. They're designed to be safe, not handle.

You have to understand that ff's are common entirely because of the packaging and costs, car companies can make any platform handle safely!

Back in the 60's you would just give your wife or kid a mini, and they were far more dangerous than most rear wheel drives of the era. The first mercedes a-class failed the moose/elk test and was subsequently filled with a raft of electronic aids.

You would give your wife or kid a modern ff just because they were designed to have safe handling, not specifically for the drivetrain (that is coincidental, and nothing more).

This post has been edited by Cubits on Feb 14 2011, 05:53 AM
MattW
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 11:21 AM


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QUOTE (GokuFc @ 6 hours, 7 minutes ago)
ok nice opinion i dont disagree but you take me wrong

i mean ffs are more useful and safe for example to give it to your wife or on a kid who just taked his pass for driving!

also what you said about alfa romeos i am a owner of a alfa 145 1.7 boxer and its working just fine steering and everything also it has a very good grip and!
Its an Alfa romeo!
THE ANCESTOR OF FERRARI!!!
is there anything else disappointing you?
Not to mention about the boxer engines!

The Alfa boxer engine is junk...that's why they replaced it with the TwinSpark.

Also, just because it's an Alfa, doesn't mean it can't be a shit car.

Hell, most Italian cars really aren't all that great, they just look nice(the 145 isn't one of them, sorry, it looks too much like the Tipo is was based on.).
Mr. Shine
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 12:24 PM


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I'm pretty sure that the Dog and Lemon Guide gave every Alfa Romeo listed as one star - "Avoid like the PLAGUE". I think possibly two models managed to receive two stars.
JKaiba
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 01:32 PM


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QUOTE (MattW @ 2 hours, 10 minutes ago)
The Alfa boxer engine is junk...that's why they replaced it with the TwinSpark.

Also, just because it's an Alfa, doesn't mean it can't be a shit car.

Hell, most Italian cars really aren't all that great, they just look nice(the 145 isn't one of them, sorry, it looks too much like the Tipo is was based on.).

Alfas are mostly slow pieces of Italian Junk. Mostly. Even today- in their FR super car the 8C, it's clear it's not a performance machine first but a showpiece primarily. It's a beautiful car and its got power but I know nearly stock Ford Focus STs that can take that car and make a joke out of it in tight low speed circuits.

Even Ferrari produced a lot of very fine looking... but poor contending cars back in the day. Maseratti built a lot of garbage too.... <cough> Biturbo.....
MattW
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 01:54 PM


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It's the Italian way! Gorgeous car..but absolute shit...and will catch on fire for no reason.

I swear, if you give an Italian man two leads of wire, no power source, and leave him in a room unattended, come back 20 min later and something will be on fire.
Spaz
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 09:10 PM


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And don't even start on the Brits...

Lucas Electrical anyone?
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MetalMan777
Posted: Feb 14 2011, 09:24 PM


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user posted image
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Lucas Motto: Get home before dark

Lucas 3 position headlight switch: Dim, flicker and off
GokuFc
Posted: Feb 15 2011, 01:24 AM


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QUOTE (MattW @ Yesterday, 1:54 PM)
It's the Italian way! Gorgeous car..but absolute shit...and will catch on fire for no reason.

I swear, if you give an Italian man two leads of wire, no power source, and leave him in a room unattended, come back 20 min later and something will be on fire.

hahahahhahahahaha that was funny!
anyway wetever you guys say!
but i still like the alfas because the have the alfa romeo passion.
And thats something only an Alfa Romeo owner would anderstand!
i didnt say i dont like any other ff i said my favorite ffs are the alfa romeo ffs!
anyway im still a proud owner, also the reason for alfa to change the boxer with a twin spark engine was the european euro1-euro2 and thats all because of the air pollution! facepalm.gif

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