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> Emperor's Simulations, Pre Project D
HyperSonic
  Posted: Sep 15 2014, 03:53 AM


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I don't know if there has been a topic about the simulations of team Emperor.

I just saw 2nd stage again (for the nth time), and I had a thought.
If Seiji drove against Takumi before project d using simulation 3 as Kyouichi did instruct him to, is it possible Takumi had lost and the whole story went the other way around?

And can somebody explain to me the differences of the simulations. facepalm.gif
kyonpalm
Posted: Sep 15 2014, 09:42 AM


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QUOTE (HyperSonic @ 5 hours, 48 minutes ago)
And can somebody explain to me the differences of the simulations. facepalm.gif

The plan was originally for Seiji to stay behind Takumi for the bulk of the race and only overtake him near the end, assuring him a victory. Instead, he got impatient and passed him midway through the race, giving Takumi enough time to turn the tables at the end instead. Had Seiji gone with the original plan, it's likely he would have won, yes. I don't necessarily think a loss for Takumi there would have affected the plot that much. A rematch might have been arranged or some other kind of compensation for the loss allow the plot to advance.

This post has been edited by kyonpalm on Sep 15 2014, 09:43 AM
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Falbere
Posted: Sep 15 2014, 03:02 PM


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Also, intense plot armour made sure Takumi won every damn race, except one of the 2 races when he blew up the damn engine xD
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htt36
Posted: Sep 15 2014, 08:09 PM


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I agree with kyonpalm. Seiji would've won if he followed Kyouchi's orders. To elaborate a little more, Kyouchi sensed/saw that Takumi was the real deal by his aura/handling of the 86. The most logical plan of attack (simulation) would be to follow Takumi's lines. Since Team Emperor truly believed Evos were the best mountain race cars, the Evo's pure power would've compensated at the very end when the slop leveled off and power would've been the deciding factor.

Instead, as kyonpalm pointed out and evident in the anime, Seiji couldn't stand being stuck behind a "slow" car the first half of the course (the slope wasn't as severe as the 2nd half). This move added unnecessary stress to the tires and essentially gave Takumi the win.

But of course, Takumi being the anime's main hero can't lose to a scrub like Seiji. But Takumi did admit it was a "hollow victory" and knew that his car would've been outclassed at any other course other than Akina.

The only way i can see Takumi losing in that scenario was an engine blow...basically an earlier race like the one Takumi vs Kyouchi a few episodes later. I don't think the writer/anime world would feel good about making him lose to Seiji who relies mostly on the ability of the car and not skill.
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Posted: Sep 15 2014, 08:54 PM


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Takumi wouldn't lose because it wouldn't prove anything and wouldn't do anything beneficial for the series. Kyouichi had every right to defeat Takumi because it was essential to Takumi's character development. Losing to Seiji would just mean that the asshole won and Takumi has a shit car.
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HyperSonic
  Posted: Sep 16 2014, 12:21 AM


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If loosing to Seiji would mean he has a shitty car. Wouldn't it result to a much earlier engine swap because as Bunta has pointed out Takumi has one last thing he hasn't done everything using the 86 and that last thing is loosing and since he would lose against Seiji, Bunta would upgrade the car much earlier and Kyouichi would have all the reason to race Takumi and would lose against Takumi because he wouldn't have the disadvantage of his engine and would cause a rematch against Seiji and Takumi would leave Seiji in the dust and would have ended on a more awesone defeat for the Emperor's and the series could have gotten even more better? facepalm.gif facepalm.gif
Banken
Posted: Sep 16 2014, 05:26 AM


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In the end, who wins on the touge is pretty much a matter of:

1. How well you know the course.

2. How insane you are.

Therefore, Takumi would have won regardless because he's the main character.

While a Lan Evo would have destroyed him on the circuit or on the uphill (not even a contest), downhill it's pretty much a matter of cornering speed and lack of self preservation, not power and traction.
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Posted: Sep 17 2014, 03:13 PM


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This discussion got me thinking, if Simulation 3 is to keep behind the opponent and then overtake him near the end, what were the other two simulations?
HyperSonic
  Posted: Sep 17 2014, 09:35 PM


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I think simulation 1 is to take the lead early and leave the opponent behind sucking your exhaust, facepalm.gif
I am not sure though. I think simulation 2 would be somewhere between simulation 1 and 3 though I can't find any way how to wrap my head around the explanation so I guess I am wrong about it.

The question now is what is simulation x which Kyouichi created specifically to take down Ryosuke's winning streak. facepalm.gif
MonkeyWrenchd
Posted: Sep 17 2014, 11:36 PM


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QUOTE (HyperSonic @ 2 hours, 0 minutes ago)
I think simulation 1 is to take the lead early and leave the opponent behind sucking your exhaust,  facepalm.gif
I am not sure though. I think simulation 2 would be somewhere between simulation 1 and 3 though I can't find any way how to wrap my head around the explanation so I guess I am wrong about it.

The question now is what is simulation x which Kyouichi created specifically to take down Ryosuke's winning streak. facepalm.gif

Simulation X is probably to still fail miserably to your arch enemy after spending one year of training derp.gif

This post has been edited by MonkeyWrenchd on Sep 17 2014, 11:39 PM
kyonpalm
Posted: Sep 18 2014, 04:52 AM


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QUOTE (MonkeyWrenchd @ 5 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Simulation X is probably to still fail miserably to your arch enemy after spending one year of training derp.gif

#shotsfired
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Banken
Posted: Sep 18 2014, 05:39 AM


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If I had to guess, Simulation 1 probably assumes an inferior driver in an inferior car (get out in front and leave them in the dust), whereas Simulation 2 probably assumes an inferior driver in an equal or superior car (apply pressure from behind and pass when the opportunity arises, then leave them in the dust). Simulation 3 could possibly assume a superior driver in an inferior car (stay behind them until you have the opportunity to use your performance advantage to blast past them at the end).

Simulation X probably assumes an equal or superior driver with an equal or superior car (ie., Takumi with the upgraded 86). The tactic? Go as fast as you possibly can.

This post has been edited by Banken on Sep 18 2014, 05:39 AM
Meteor
Posted: Sep 18 2014, 03:16 PM


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Seeing as Simulation X was the one he formulated specifically for battling Ryousuke, I'd say it probably just amounts to what was displayed in that race itself.
Step 1: Keep up with the FC
Step 2: Overtake on a particular s-turn, going in side-by-side on the outside of the first half than slipping past on the inside of the second half
Step 3: Stay ahead

Of course, step 3 didn't exactly work out because Kyouichi was nervous about oncoming traffic and held back noticeably on right turns (the exact opposite of his live-action counterpart, who was a complete moron and ragecharged straight towards traffic). Ryousuke saw opportunity and managed to cut in front of him due to this, and that ended up being enough to destroy the whole strategy.
HyperSonic
  Posted: Sep 18 2014, 05:04 PM


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As per Meteor's explanation simulation x is a winning strategy in which you can pass the opponent only once. since you have to choose a particular corner where to do that. Failing to do so would result to automatic lost???? facepalm.gif
htt36
Posted: Sep 18 2014, 05:39 PM


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I'm not sure Simulation X was designed to overtake on a "specific s-turn". Rather, Simulation X was built on the concept of Kyouichi staying behind to study/get a feel for Ryosuke's lines and speed. As with other races in the series, as long as your a good driver, you can follow and absorb the lead cars speed.

This tactic allowed Kyouichi (according to the anime, maybe a little different in manga) to increase his confidence and erase any doubt in his mind that Ryosuke and his FC just don't have the power/skill to beat Kyouichi and his Evo with misfiring.

For the overtake spot at Akagi, I felt he chose to overtake Ryosuke at a difficult s-turn as a more symbolic move. Remember, they were racing for pride and who had the "right" racing philosophy as well. Kyouichi didn't believe mountain passes required any different techniques that circuit courses had while Ryosuke's whole being believed mountain pass racing was totally different (fastest theory).

The spot he overtook would've been challenging for average racers, but Kyouichi was highly confident his and his car's ability could blow by Ryosuke-- which he did. Even the Night Kids were shocked to see that type of power overtake Ryosuke on his home course. With that said, Simulation X played out just as Kyouichi predicted. Unfortunately, since this is a mountain pass race, the battle of philosophies eventually took precedence and Ryosuke's philosophy of mountain driving beat Kyouichi's circuit style.
HyperSonic
  Posted: Sep 18 2014, 11:26 PM


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Meaning without the role of the mountain pass in the said race, Ryosuke would have lost?

I think I need to watch that episode again cause I wasn't quite sure if Ryosuke had trouble after being past by Sudo, was he surprised? or did he panicked or saomething?
MonkeyWrenchd
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 05:04 AM


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QUOTE (HyperSonic @ 5 hours, 37 minutes ago)
Meaning without the role of the mountain pass in the said race, Ryosuke would have lost?

I think I need to watch that episode again cause I wasn't quite sure if Ryosuke had trouble after being past by Sudo, was he surprised? or did he panicked or saomething?

I thought he didn't panic at all during that race, he did use his strategy to observe Kyouichi's weakness from behind so i think at some point he predicted he would get passed.

I think the only time he panicked a bit was when he was trying to stop Shinigami from crashing the toll booth.

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Tessou
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 08:54 AM


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QUOTE (HyperSonic @ Sep 16 2014, 04:21 AM)
If loosing to Seiji would mean he has a shitty car. Wouldn't it result to a much earlier engine swap because as Bunta has pointed out Takumi has one last thing he hasn't done everything using the 86 and that last thing is loosing and since he would lose against Seiji, Bunta would upgrade the car much earlier and Kyouichi would have all the reason to race Takumi and would lose against Takumi because he wouldn't have the disadvantage of his engine and would cause a rematch against Seiji and Takumi would leave Seiji in the dust and would have ended on a more awesone defeat for the Emperor's and the series could have gotten even more better? facepalm.gif  facepalm.gif

Seiji defeating Takumi, ON AKINA, would mean that Seiji was able to do what Ryosuke couldn't. The implications are further than "he would have to upgrade the AE86 earlier". What point would there be to upgrade it at that point? They upgraded because the engine blew, not because he was defeated. Bunta predicted a blown engine and had the new one ordered ahead of time. Swapping it out earlier, due to a defeat, would validate Seiji's mention of the AE86 being complete garbage by itself. A win against Seiji afterwards with the new engine would have little value. Emperor would have already claimed overall victory and we wouldn't have an emotional impact from any of it. Let's elaborate on that...

Originally, the engine blew after Takumi, having witnessed his girlfriend overly cheating on him, took the car to Akagi and stressed the engine past the limit due to overemotional driving. He didn't even want to replace it with a better engine. He offered to pay for a simple swap to another basic 4AGE. Bunta's foresight of more difficult opponents was what caused the silvertop to come into play. It was a necessity.

If we go on the storyline that Seiji won and forced Takumi to upgrade, there's no real gain, because Takumi would only get the new engine explicitly to "get revenge" and win against a more powerful car. Bunta probably wouldn't allow an engine swap at that point because it was still his car, and his son just got his ass handed to him on his home course by a mid-tier driver. Would Bunta just hand over a high power engine as a consolation prize? No, because Takumi wouldn't have learned a goddamn thing from it aside from "more power more win", which was completely against the message of the series up to that point. Takumi's wins had meaning because he was the extreme underdog taking down giants. Simply picking up a bigger sword would do nothing for him. His respect would be lost. Let's also note that it took a LONG time for Takumi to acclimate to the "new" AE86, and in that timeframe Kyouichi would have already taken on Ryosuke. Since Ryosuke didn't see Takumi going against Kyouichi on Akagi (because it didn't happen), there is a good chance Ryosuke wouldn't see Kyouichi's weakness until it was too late, as he originally defeated Kyouichi on one of the very last corners, and only because he was able to exploit a weakness that he knew about from watching that fated race.

Sure, Takumi would eventually "discover" the power of the new engine and would rematch Seiji and eventually challenge Kyouichi, but by that point it wouldn't matter to Emperor. They would have already soundly defeated the best racers in the prefecture. Keisuke might've taken a win over Seiji either way, but that's a win that wouldn't really matter much, considering the minute impact it had in the manga. The RedSuns sticker would be just another slashed icon on Seiji's wing.

That said, what about Takumi's fated night noticing Natsuki's infidelity? Would he mess up a different race because of that, and not blow the engine? The implications there are even worse. Could the series still continue and be decent? Maybe, but the storyline change would not have the same impact.

My conclusion is that Seiji had to lose to Takumi. The setup was for Takumi to race with Kyoichi and lose symbolically. To lose to Seiji would defeat the whole purpose of the Emperor arc. Think of it like the phoenix legend: death and rebirth. Without the death, the rebirth has no meaning.

This post has been edited by Tessou on Sep 19 2014, 08:59 AM
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Gunma's 34
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 01:49 PM


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QUOTE (MonkeyWrenchd @ Sep 18 2014, 03:36 PM)
Simulation X is probably to still fail miserably to your arch enemy after spending one year of training derp.gif

I died laughing reading this. laugh2.gif laugh2.gif
Tessou
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 03:40 PM


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I wonder how it would work out if Ryosuke challenged Kyouichi on Irohazaka...
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Gunma's 34
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 05:27 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ 1 hour, 47 minutes ago)
I wonder how it would work out if Ryosuke challenged Kyouichi on Irohazaka...

On that note, if Ryosuke did... the Irohazaka jump strategy would've been spoiled from the onset even before protagonist/pwotagonist Takumi faces off against either Kai or Kyouichi. Ryosuke foresaw it before the 32nd hairpin/corner even before Kai planned it and I take it Kyouichi knew that very well too and Kyoichi's CE3A is far tall enough, as tall as the 86 I think or nearly, to sustain the jump drop.

If that were the case, the big question is... would either have the balls to risk their cars for such a risky move?

On the perspective of their cars though, Kyoichi would have a far better chance at every corner exit, than the FC. It's a full 180 hairpin, surely the 4WD system would fare better than the FRs.

This post has been edited by Gunma's 34 on Sep 19 2014, 05:32 PM
Tessou
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 05:54 PM


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Considering how Kyoichi's rematch with Takumi fared, I think Ryosuke would be able to clinch it in the same manner. Ryosuke's car weighs less so he'd have the same advantage Takumi had for the majority of the course. Ryosuke also knows Irohazaka and would probably have some strategy to pull out of his ass when his opponent least expects it, as he typically does.

Kyoichi indicated that he knew about the jumps anyway, but also somewhat revealed that he had never tried them. Ryosuke has demonstrated that he is willing to take risks in order to win. Kyoichi hesitates at those kind of moments. I think on Iro, Ryosuke has a solid chance to win. Remember that Takumi was able to beat Kyoichi without ever setting foot on the downhill section beforehand. A mastermind like Ryosuke would find exploits pretty damn quickly that Kyoichi probably wouldn't bother utilizing.
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MonkeyWrenchd
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 06:18 PM


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Kyouichi isn't the type of person who uses those kind of tactics. Ryosuke said it himself that Kyouichi is the type who makes sure his car is better than the other guy. Also he's the circuit racing type guy so i don't think he had the balls to risk his car unlike Ryosuke and Takumi who are street racing type people.

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Tessou
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 06:22 PM


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That's what I said. He can have 200,000hp and he'd still find a way to lose.
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MonkeyWrenchd
Posted: Sep 19 2014, 06:35 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ 12 minutes, 55 seconds ago)
That's what I said. He can have 200,000hp and he'd still find a way to lose.

Best way to describe kyouichi here

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