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> Shooting in Orlando, 50 killed, 50+ Injured
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 14 2016, 08:45 PM


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QUOTE (Yosuke @ 3 hours, 3 minutes ago)
I mean, given the relative ease of purchasing a firearm legally I'd assume the buyer in question would definitely know more about the laws than the lawmakers, after all, they have to go through the process of going through everything to actually get their license and weapon.

Since all the people making the laws do is cherry pick words in regards to banning something. Words that have been spread by the mainstream media as the big evil rather than taking the minimal amount of time necessary to learn the difference.

Depends on the weapon. Assuming it's already something in-stock on a shelf in a store, that means the store knows about the legality of said weapon. If a first-time customer can pass a written test on the spot and pass a background check, all they need to do is point at it and go "that one" and fork over the cash then wait ten days. Bing bang boom, got a gun in California.

So Kyonpalm is correct--the buyer doesn't necessarily know more. I mean, shit, they have know-nothing reporters going out and buying guns as statements who I wouldn't trust to hold a fork let alone a semi-automatic rifle, so there you go. That's what I'd like to see change.
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Kiroshino
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 03:54 AM


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I don't really want to dive much further into this topic since it feels somewhat inconsiderate to the 50+ people who were killed in Florida this past week, but I do have a stupid question: Why is it easier to obtain a long gun than it is to obtain a handgun? At least in NJ, you have to apply for a handgun purchase permit, which is known to take a while to obtain (ie 6 months, depending on the municipality) and is only valid for 90 days. To purchase a long gun, from my understanding, all you need is a firearms ID.
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 05:00 AM


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Because it's the one time that the law is actually trying to do something useful about handguns. Handguns are used in the overwhelming majority of gun crime, yet all you ever hear about is 'those evil assault rifles'. Handguns do not have 'utility', but are useful for personal protection. Long guns, meanwhile, do have utility both for sport and for hunting. This is why even in restrictive states like NY--where getting a handgun requires a catch-22-like permit system--they haven't banned long gun sales. Too many rural areas with legitimate hunting going on for that to pass muster. Here in California it used to be that to purchase a handgun you needed to be age 21, have a handgun permit, and you could only buy one every 30 days (whereas long guns were age 18, no permit, no restriction). Now long guns require the same permit and they're trying to extend the one-per-30-day restriction to them as well.

So there you go. Long guns have utility for sport and game. Handguns have utility for protecting oneself against other human beings. Due to that difference, it's generally harder to acquire handguns than long guns. That doesn't mean that's what you use a handgun for--I have one, I only ever use it at a handgun range for sport--but that's how the law sees things. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Nomake Wan on Jun 15 2016, 05:00 AM
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Kiroshino
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 05:12 AM


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That makes sense. Didn't think about the difference in real "utility", only capability. Thanks. smile.gif
kyonpalm
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 07:31 AM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ Yesterday, 9:03 PM)
So, as said, guns are a tool/enabler for those who desire to kill indiscriminately. Full stop. Feel free to glance up, read it over again, then glance back down here and read it again.

Sorry, I'm looking at that whole piece every which way and still not seeing any suggestion that guns, as objects, are dangerous to people, let alone...

QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ Yesterday, 9:03 PM)
My gun is not a tool/enabler for those who desire to kill indiscriminately.

...anything to suggest he's referring to guns owned by responsible individuals like you. On the contrary, he's talking about guns being a "tool for those who desire to kill indiscriminately" which is just a fact. Pretty sure it's just to be taken at face value.

Anywho...

QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 3 hours, 19 minutes ago)
I don't really want to dive much further into this topic since it feels somewhat inconsiderate to the 50+ people who were killed in Florida this past week ...

I think a healthy discussion about how to help prevent tragedies like the shooting in question in the future is actually the most considerate thing a group of strangers can do to those people. This is a million times better than people making boo-hoo posts and virtue signaling on social media about people they didn't know and things they don't know jack shit about.
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Cecilia
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 01:25 PM


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Good must stand up to evil.

We'll all just have to arm ourselves and take the murderous assholes down ourselves as we encounter them.
😇💀

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Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 01:33 PM


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Move to the Philippines, I hear that's literally the presiding law over there right now. rolleyes.gif
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xiao
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 01:37 PM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 4 minutes, 12 seconds ago)
Move to the Philippines, I hear that's literally the presiding law over there right now. rolleyes.gif

In Texas too! (except you don't have to be a murderous schmoot) laugh.gif derp.gif ~

This post has been edited by xiao on Jun 15 2016, 01:43 PM
Cecilia
Posted: Jun 15 2016, 06:53 PM


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Don't be a pussycat. 🐱

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xiao
Posted: Jun 16 2016, 11:42 PM


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QUOTE (Cecilia @ Jun 15 2016, 08:53 PM)
Don't be a pussycat. 🐱

Who~ the bunny, the cat, or the human?? Cause everyone knows xiao's always jumping flash! and Nomake's usually in neko-paradise, while Kyon's computer doesn't have an emoji function ~ laugh.gif

... and it only took me 48 hours to think of a good pun! awesome.gif (?)
Cecilia
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 07:00 AM


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The nice thing about not believing in evil is that you don't have to stand up to anything.

I'd like to know how many mass shootings take place in Texas compared to the rest of the states.

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xiao
  Posted: Jun 17 2016, 09:22 AM


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QUOTE (Cecilia @ 2 hours, 5 minutes ago)
The nice thing about not believing in evil is that you don't have to stand up to anything.

I'd like to know how many mass shootings take place in Texas compared to the rest of the states.

Yeps, I was just making fun of Nomake's post by playing on the common Wild West stereotype people have about Texas. I neither agree with you or Nomake... Evil is something very real, that I totally agree ~ but I don't have the heart to raise my voice against anyone, let alone a fist. I used to be really boisterous and direct... Paramedics have some of the worst bloated heads you'll ever meet - like we think we're super cardio-surgeons with all the power of a cop, without actually ever going through LEO training or med-school. I have confronted my fair share of violent people trying to access patients in very unsafe locations... gang members, drunk men, bikers, drug dealers, and angry dads at sport-events are among the most unsafe people I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with. When you perform CPR on someone without a pulse, you have to break their rib-cage in order to hit those right compressions. That's enough violence for me, and it's pretty scary.

People ask me, what do you believe in...?

I tell 'em I believe in you. d(´・ω・`) ★
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 09:37 AM


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QUOTE (Cecilia @ 2 hours, 36 minutes ago)
I'd like to know how many mass shootings take place in Texas compared to the rest of the states.

According to the Mother Jones list of mass public shootings--what people actually mean when they say 'mass shooting' even though it's technically something different--there have been 6 mass public shootings in Texas since the list began in 1982. The list is comprised of 81 mass public shootings and is up-to-date as of Orlando. Florida sits at 7. California, famously anti-gun, sits at 13. New York, similarly anti-gun, sits at 4. Colorado is at 5. Washington state, 6. That's half the list right there.
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Kiroshino
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 09:42 AM


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I can't see the list from my work computer. How was the ranking determined?
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 09:46 AM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 3 minutes, 44 seconds ago)
I can't see the list from my work computer. How was the ranking determined?

I mentioned no ranking. Those are total number of mass public shooting events in the states I named.
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Kiroshino
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 11:07 AM


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Oh, okay. I read it as a rankings 4, 5, 6, 7, 13. My bad.

Was just curious if there was an easy correlation between population and/or population density and mass shootings. Doesn't look like it, though NY might just be an outlier.

State
Number of Mass Public Shootings (1982-Present)
Population Density per Square Mile (2013)
Population (2015)
Population (2015) / Number of Mass Public Shootings (1982-Present)

New York (Anti-Gun)
4
417.0
19,795,791
4,948,948

Colorado
5
50.8
5,456,574
1,091,315

Washington
6
104.9
7,170,351
1,195,059

Florida
7
364.6
20,271,272
2,895,896

California (Anti-Gun)
13
246.1
39,144,818
3,011,140
Tessou
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 02:30 PM


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I waited a while to properly respond to this thread as I wanted to take time reflecting on what happened and trying not to fly off on a rant.

This is not an issue of gun control. Restricting or outright banning guns is not going to solve the problem. If a person has the inclination to murder dozens of people, they will find a way. McVeigh used a truck full of fertilizer and killed 168 people. Taliban hijacked planes with box cutters and killed nearly 3,000 people. Looking at this as a "guns are bad" issue is pointless. The fact that Omar had a semiautomatic weapon is not the problem, as he obtained it legally. What does it take to convince somebody to kill another person? Handing me a pistol is not going to give me the inclination to kill someone. If Cecilia handed me a knife, I would ask her which vegetables I should be chopping, not who to stab.

For a moment, I am forced to discuss politics in light of this atrocity. Yes, it's not all Muslims. It's not Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion, in practice, just like Christianity. The big difference between our cultures, specifically the USA and the majority of the Middle East, is that ME countries develop their governments firmly on the principles of religion. They are religious states. The US is explicitly not a religious state, because putting religion into the big chair is extremely dangerous, and the country was founded specifically to escape that kind of existence.

But why is that a problem? The Bible has passages that command and describe graphic acts of violence just like the Quran, so where's the difference? The difference is that the Bible surrounds these passages with historical context. The writing makes it absurd to carry out these edicts from God many thousands of years in the future (aka today). The Quran does not have that sort of context, as Allah's Word is unchanging and eternal. While the vast majority of Muslims do not believe that these violent passages have any weight in the current world, they cannot operate on this belief since the countries they live in can have them tried and executed for blasphemy against The Word. Middle Eastern countries work with religious governments. Imams and Sheikhs are highly respected religious officials that can dictate law for entire countries by interpreting the Quran however they choose in a given scenario.

With organizations like ISIS that explicitly believe in the passages that demand fighting and violence and retribution in the name of Allah against the non-believers and Muslims that do not want to fight (because Allah demands that all Muslims must fight for the cause), they can "convince" people that any inconvenience or annoyance is due to influence by infidels and that they must destroy them (or else). By releasing their videos of executions and torture, they very quickly demonstrate the power of their "religious righteousness", which is why so many people flock to join their ranks. In a state where you're taught from birth that faith rules above all, even above family and self-actualization, it's inevitable that this shit will happen. Again, not all Muslims, but the region is a powder keg and it's ridiculous to watch the media consistently tiptoe around it because of political correctness and the complex web of relations between the US and these countries. Remember, we can't shit on Saudi Arabia because otherwise they'll cut off our fossil fuels. We can't shit on Iran because of "tensions" between us and a government that absolutely despises us (for, you guessed it, religious reasons!).

So, it's not fucking guns. It never was. Omar had a reason for doing what he did, and it was not simply because he obtained a rifle and decided to kill some people. It's not Islam. It's the politics of Islam. He was an indoctrinated terrorist that did it to further the goals of a terrorist organization. Fuck gun control.
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Cecilia
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 02:58 PM


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QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 5 hours, 20 minutes ago)
According to the Mother Jones list of mass public shootings--what people actually mean when they say 'mass shooting' even though it's technically something different--there have been 6 mass public shootings in Texas since the list began in 1982. The list is comprised of 81 mass public shootings and is up-to-date as of Orlando. Florida sits at 7. California, famously anti-gun, sits at 13. New York, similarly anti-gun, sits at 4. Colorado is at 5. Washington state, 6. That's half the list right there.

Thanks for the info! I am now informed. ☺

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Nomake Wan
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 03:37 PM


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No problem!

Tessou, I must disagree that there is no problem with guns. I have said this so often that it's becoming a reflex action, but it should not be easier to acquire a gun than it is to get a driver's license. A person not allowed on a domestic aircraft should not be automatically approved to purchase a firearm. These are real problems, and they deserve to be addressed.

However, they will get bundled in with the rest of what constitutes gun control, namely banning swaths of scary-looking guns that aren't more dangerous than other guns, or just banning and confiscating guns outright, neither of which is gonna happen. Which is why the licensing or background check stuff won't succeed either. Well, that and our three-letter agencies don't want to open their super-secret lists open to due process scrutiny.

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Tessou
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 04:31 PM


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Oh I totally agree with you on tighter entry restrictions, licensing, etc. My point is that Omar having a weapon was not the reason he killed 49 people.
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kyonpalm
Posted: Jun 17 2016, 08:53 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ 6 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Yes, it's not all Muslims. It's not Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion, in practice, just like Christianity.

fun·da·men·tal·ism
/fəndəˈmen(t)lˌizəm/

noun: fundamentalism

• a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.
• strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=253_1412566275
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Tessou
Posted: Jun 18 2016, 12:35 AM


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When was I on Fox News?
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