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Skv012a | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 11:51 AM |
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile | Wanted to ask our experts here- how is this technique IF done perfectly? If you pop out and into gears without having to force the shifter, without feeling any strain, without grinding anything aka perfectly matching the revs? |
DigiBunny | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 03:41 PM |
Reading is magic! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,601 Member No.: 30,700 Joined: Sep 24th 2008 Location: Philippines | Something to do with tricking the synchros. It's a given that revs drop and rise when you shift up and down, so I believe it's giving the car JUST the right amount of throttle to bring it up to the next gear ratio's RPM, or conversely releasing just enough so that it drops, in order to upshift or downshift. Someone correct my if I'm wrong, but what you do is basically move faster than the synchros can keep up with you. |
JKaiba | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 03:42 PM | ||
Alias The J' Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 16,596 Joined: Mar 13th 2006 Location: One Day In an Office.. Typing... On a computer |
I want to answer your question properly... but in order to do that I need to understand it. Are you asking HOW to do clutchless shifting? Or what are its benefits maybe? Your second sentence wasn't a complete thought. | ||
Skv012a | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:13 PM | ||
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile |
Where the heck did you even get that quote?? I'm asking how do you guys feel about, in plain simple english. | ||
Steve | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:21 PM | ||
IDW Saiyan Group: Advanced Members Posts: 9,139 Member No.: 1,205 Joined: Jan 31st 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas |
Actually, your sentence structure looks like it was formed by a 3rd grader. What do you want to know? | ||
Skv012a | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:25 PM |
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile | Are there any benefits besides not having to use/strain the clutch? Would there still be synchro gear wear/tear/damage if the shifts are smoothly and easily? |
JKaiba | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 04:50 PM |
Alias The J' Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 16,596 Joined: Mar 13th 2006 Location: One Day In an Office.. Typing... On a computer | If there's no grinding I don't think there's anything other than the usual selector fork wear. Otherwise if you miss the gear you get lots of little metal bits in your tranny oil and you can break things. It's not something to be doing unnecessarily. |
sideways | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 05:07 PM |
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Clutchless shifting is a little harder on the synchros unless you are PERFECTLY spot on. With proper technique you can be off a few hundred rpms (ive done it with as much as 500) and still get it to shift into gear very smoothly with no clunking/thunking/grinding/whining. Whatre the benefits of a clutchless shift? Not many- and depends on how you want to look at the situation. Youre not slipping the clutch, whee- but synchros cost more to replace (and are a lot more difficult to) than a clutch. I can only think of two benefits to clutchless shifting- One if youre being extremely lazy in stop/go traffic. When living in socal i dealt daily with about an hour of stop/go traffic traveling a distance of a bit of 20 miles. I would resort to clutchless shifting when i was feeling particularly lazy. Only other benefit is it can be a handy trick if you clutch hydraulics ever go out, its the difference between being stranded and gimping yourself home. |
peemyTNBow | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 09:23 PM |
Unregistered | How do you do proper clutchless shifting? Spend $9000 dollars and get a PPG Dogbox for your Z. That way when you bang up and down gears without clutching you won't have tranny guts spilling out. Otherwise, drive the way a 3 pedal car should be driven. |
Skv012a | Posted: Jun 18 2010, 10:36 PM |
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile | Sounds good. Neat trick to know, but use as last resort. I'd say it seems like a very good way to learn where the shift points are, but considering the potential damage involved it not worth it. |
sideways | Posted: Jun 19 2010, 02:18 PM | ||
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada |
How do you do it properly? You shift without grinding the gears and making nasty noises/smells Havent tried it in the Z yet, only done it in the corolla. | ||
Bubs | Posted: Jun 19 2010, 03:39 PM |
Plep Group: Advanced Members Posts: 4,784 Member No.: 1,079 Joined: Dec 1st 2003 Location: Update Profile | I don't really see any use to clutchless shifting, so I haven't done it in any of my vehicles - except that one time that the clutch cable snapped on my Kawasaki, but that's a motorcycle so that doesn't count here. |
CrypticApathy | Posted: Jun 19 2010, 05:28 PM |
OH SNAP! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,930 Member No.: 1,065 Joined: Nov 28th 2003 Location: Tampa FL | Unless your clutch goes bye bye on you, theres no benefit to it. All your doing is putting wear and tear on a part(s) thats expensive to replace. Think of it as the benefit of engine braking vs using your brakes to slow down or stop. 1 is a 30 (break pads) dollar part to replace the other is a 1k+ (transmission) dollar part to replace. Which would you rather spend money on? |
Mr. Shine | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 03:28 AM | ||
Troll King Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,058 Member No.: 3,757 Joined: Oct 18th 2004 Location: Ankh-Morpork |
But my brakes do actually go on me at times | ||
backalleyracer | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 06:24 AM | ||
IDW Goldmember Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,770 Member No.: 7,122 Joined: May 1st 2005 Location: Las Vegas |
this...... I had to do this on many occasions, one time my master cylinder some how went dry (which I later found out why) and I gimped myself to a gas station, came across a few stop signs too, with which I just left the car in gear, and started it up in gear again. Btw, this sort of thing only seems to happen when you are in the middle of no where | ||
Skv012a | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 08:21 AM |
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile | Come to think of it, if my Z falls under the slave cylinder recall, this might come in handy if it decides to crap out on me one fine day. |
peemyTNBow | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 10:01 AM | ||
Unregistered |
Get Endless brake pads. You won't have that problem ever again. Chipping compound, not having heat resistance, w/e you can think of. This post has been edited by BmwNeoType on Jun 20 2010, 10:02 AM | ||
avraell | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 10:13 AM |
IDW Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 77 Member No.: 30,787 Joined: Oct 5th 2008 Location: Update Profile | So, wait, you can clutchless shift on ANY manual car? Do I just raise the revs and jerk the shifter into the next gear? (My synchros are virtually gone anyway) |
sideways | Posted: Jun 20 2010, 01:23 PM | ||
We're the People's Front of Judea! Group: Advanced Members Posts: 13,123 Member No.: 1,355 Joined: Feb 28th 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Not that I typically "condone" doing it- but since youve asked.. If youre synchros are gone its going to make doing this a lot harder. Good synchros can easily take up the "slack" so to speak and compensate for the difference in rpms without causing grinds. No synchros means youre going to have to be all that much more precise in matching the rpms. Dont "raise" the revs, "match" the rpms. If youre shifting up, the rpms need to go down, if youre downshifting, the rpms need to go up. Do not jerk the shifter into gear. At least imo, I wouldnt. Any time ive ever managed what i consider a "clean" shift without the use of a clutch the force on the shift has been minimal, the same effort one would use as if shifting with the clutch down is all ive ever needed. Practical thought: If your synchros are bad the transmission is probably hurting, or will be soon. I wouldnt put it through the stresses of shifting clutchlessly. Id recommend you learn how to double-clutch properly. It doesnt matter how bad the synchros are, a proper double-clutch will avoid all issues when shifting (youre essentially doing the job of the synchros manually).
In my case brake pads for my car are 150+, and transmissions are 100. Swapping a transmission takes me maaaybe an hour so... *ponders* | ||
Skv012a | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 12:53 AM | ||
IDW Regular Member Group: Members Posts: 238 Member No.: 31,343 Joined: Dec 14th 2008 Location: Update Profile |
An outdated heel-toe or is it still a useful, similar technique? | ||
avraell | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 10:57 AM | ||
IDW Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 77 Member No.: 30,787 Joined: Oct 5th 2008 Location: Update Profile | ^Not really. Besides heel and toe isn't exactly outdated, you still need to rev match on downshifts unless you are driving a 370Z, so learn it. Don't start with corners though...
Yea, I realize about the stress As for normal driving, it seems to work fine with just rev matching though, so I never double clutch. | ||
JKaiba | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 11:18 AM | ||
Alias The J' Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 16,596 Joined: Mar 13th 2006 Location: One Day In an Office.. Typing... On a computer |
I've told you this once already in another thread and I was far ruder than this! Double clutching IS NOT HEEL TOE!!! Go and look it up. | ||
biggamehit | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 12:22 PM |
IDW Prime Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 567 Member No.: 8,278 Joined: Jun 18th 2005 Location: Misawa, Japan | The only benefit is being able to drive if your clutch happens to wear down way to much. while out racing one night I pretty much destroyed my disc to the point where it would barely grab and. back then I had little money and for about a week I had to shift with no clutch. It sucked because each time I came to a complete stop, I had to cut the car off put it in first and go...tons of strain on the starter when on hills. I am able to actually downshift as well with no clutch lol fun stuff. also for anyone who drives trucks like me, floating the gears is common. |
Mr. Shine | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 01:55 PM | ||
Troll King Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,058 Member No.: 3,757 Joined: Oct 18th 2004 Location: Ankh-Morpork |
Heel-toe is used for rev-matching as you down-shift and brake. Double-clutching is used for rev-matching, but has nothing to do with braking in itself. You can double-clutch and heel-toe at the same time. | ||
biggamehit | Posted: Jun 21 2010, 02:21 PM |
IDW Prime Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 567 Member No.: 8,278 Joined: Jun 18th 2005 Location: Misawa, Japan | .... technically double clutching only applies to very large trucks... I know what you mean but in this situation double clutching=clutch kicking. |
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