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Views: 4,017  ·  Replies: 16 
> Handbrake turns on 4WD/AWD?, Motorkhana techniques
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Feb 22 2009, 06:10 AM


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So I was having a browse at a Motorkhana sites gallery & went through the driving tips section as well. Getting good at pulling handbrake turns will do a lot to improve ones Motorkhana skill but it also said handbrake turns not reccommended for 4WDs, the guide was mainly written for front wheel drives.

With a bit of a think, the reasons why it's not good for 4WDs like my 323 Familia GTR is because the drivetrain is all mechanical unlike much more modern 4WDs/AWDs that have a bunch of electronic gizmos to help out.

When the rear wheels lock it'll also stop the rear diff/propshaft from turning but the front wheels/front driveshafts will still be moving from momentum. So clutching in, turn, then handbrake & release. Suddenly stopping the rear end while the fronts are still moving is going to be bad for the gearbox as well. Am I right in my thinking?

Modern cars like the Mazda6 MPS for example with electronic controlled diffs are designed early on to disable torque transfer to the rear when the handbrake is on, effectively sending all torque to the front making it a front wheel drive momentarily.

Subarus having a longitudal engine I'd think would be more rear torque biased. I hear they can also disable front drive by just pulling a fuse out.

Even though my car wouldn't be all that ideal for Motorhana like a Mini Cooper/MX-5 or Lotus-Locust7, it doesn't mean I won't have a try for fun sometime biggrin.gif

My inspiration is this guy, phwoar he's got some skill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IShsEL2n7Oc

This post has been edited by SuperMazdaKart on Feb 22 2009, 06:38 AM
Spaz
Posted: Feb 22 2009, 05:47 PM


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It's not the gearbox we worry about, it's the center diff. Having one shaft stationary while one is still spinning is VERY hard on a diff. Some cars have the diff integrated into the gearbox, but it's still not a gearbox issue in the end.

That said, most AWDs don't come with a handbrake from factory that's strong enough to lock the rear wheels, at least on pavement. For that, you need to upgrade to a hydraulic handbrake.

And I don't know what you're talking about with your 323 not being a good car for autox... I know for a fact that the Pulsar GTiR is a great car on course, so I wouldn't think the 323 GTR could be that much worse...

And for some more rally action: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/RallyCo...tion_168105.htm For lulz, watch the wipers after each time he gets air. Silly DSMs...

This post has been edited by cmspaz on Feb 22 2009, 05:54 PM
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SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Feb 22 2009, 07:25 PM


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ideal, i said ideal smile.gif

yes it's the transfer carrier that i'd worry about. it's the weakest link & main thing thats known to break on the 323s.
WRX DEMON Type R
Posted: Feb 22 2009, 08:16 PM


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Some AWD vehicles are set to disengage the transfercase/central differential when the handbrake is pulled.
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Feb 23 2009, 07:49 AM


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yep, Mazda 6 MPS is one (or MazdaSpeed 6 as you probably know it over there). not sure about Subaru's & EVO's though.

i might have to look into adjustable sway bars for mine. hrmms.
Cubits
Posted: Mar 26 2009, 10:09 AM


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When subaru's got active centre diffs they had the electronic disengagement, evo's have had it for longer.

Watch some group b footage of the monster cars getting caught up on hairpins (sometimes three-point turning!), that's what a fully mechanical system looks like in action. tongue.gif

You could still do quite well without abusing the handbrake in motorkana, but obviously you'd have to make up time lost on the really tight hairpins (worked for the 205 T16, Lancia S4, and Audi Quattro...).
spl
Posted: Mar 26 2009, 08:31 PM


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QUOTE (Cubits @ Today, 10:09 AM)
When subaru's got active centre diffs they had the electronic disengagement, evo's have had it for longer.

Watch some group b footage of the monster cars getting caught up on hairpins (sometimes three-point turning!), that's what a fully mechanical system looks like in action. tongue.gif

You could still do quite well without abusing the handbrake in motorkana, but obviously you'd have to make up time lost on the really tight hairpins (worked for the 205 T16, Lancia S4, and Audi Quattro...).

Have you got any links to these old Group B footage? I love this era and want to see more of it. I saw a really good documentary called "Too fast to race".
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Mar 27 2009, 03:43 AM


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i saw that DVD at SuperCheapAuto haha. thought about buying it, it's a bit regular price for something meant to be super cheap though heh.
RalliKai
Posted: Mar 27 2009, 11:02 AM


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QUOTE (spl @ Yesterday, 11:31 PM)
Have you got any links to these old Group B footage? I love this era and want to see more of it. I saw a really good documentary called "Too fast to race".


Here is some good footage. Youtube has alot of it. The start is the onboard view from a Renault 5 Maxi I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtoXaLNi3zk
The Audi was a real interesting car to watch since it was pretty much the only front engine Group B car in 85, 86'. Short wheel-base with alot of front overhang.

QUOTE
Watch some group b footage of the monster cars getting caught up on hairpins (sometimes three-point turning!), that's what a fully mechanical system looks like in action. tongue.gif


Along with ridiculous turbo lag.


Subaru didn't start using active differentials till the 08' correct?

This post has been edited by RalliKai on Mar 27 2009, 11:06 AM
DeeezNuuuts83
Posted: Mar 27 2009, 04:54 PM


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QUOTE (RalliKai @ 5 hours, 51 minutes ago)
Subaru didn't start using active differentials till the 08' correct?

In which application?
RalliKai
Posted: Mar 28 2009, 07:46 AM


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QUOTE (DeeezNuuuts83 @ Yesterday, 7:54 PM)
In which application?

Oh, I just asking cause I thought Cubits may have been referring to the VDC that are now in the newer Subaru Impreza's as the active center differential. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

This post has been edited by RalliKai on Mar 28 2009, 07:48 AM
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Apr 13 2009, 10:40 PM


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i got my non speed motorsport license today. looks like i'll be going to the next motorkhana session on the 26th april.

i don't think the regular EVO/STI guys need to be concerned about the newcomer in an old 323 4wd that doesn't have rear disengagement upstaging them lol.
Edi-no-son
Posted: Apr 13 2009, 11:17 PM


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haha its not all about power man...

I've got an evo and i went to a mazda motorkhana.
Then i swapped with a friend in the mazda2 and beat him in the evo by far....
Motorkhana isn't about power, but is about skill lolz

I'm hoping to enter a motorkhana hopefully in may hehehe
The problem i found last time i was at the motorkhana was with 4wd, u need speed... without speed, yanking the handbrake doesn't do anything except foollow ur original line :S
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Apr 13 2009, 11:48 PM


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what the, your here as well..

hah! i joined in the year before you did
SuperMazdaKart
  Posted: Apr 26 2009, 01:47 AM


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Woah heck yeh that was awesome! & I kicked arse in the E Class 4WDs, the fact that I was the only one competing in a 4WD there is irrelevant. Didn't get to do all the tests in the time frame. Bring on the next one biggrin.gif

Botched some of the tests but oh well. Handbraking didn't really seem to do much... Perhaps I need more practise with it.

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& yours truely,
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This post has been edited by SuperMazdaKart on Apr 26 2009, 02:52 AM
DXPetti
Posted: Apr 28 2009, 11:25 PM


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QUOTE (RalliKai @ Mar 29 2009, 02:46 AM)
Oh, I just asking cause I thought Cubits may have been referring to the VDC that are now in the newer Subaru Impreza's as the active center differential. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

ahhh no. VDC is the next step/addition to ABS where the ECU uses yaw rate sensor, steering angle sensors etc to apply the brakes to individual wheels to prevent things like oversteer.

It has nothing to do with the center diff's in Subaru's DCCD based AWD system (for the STI) or Vicious LSD based AWD system (for the rest of Subarus) wink2.gif
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Bubs
Posted: May 2 2009, 06:19 PM


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My friend did handbrake turns in his (now being utilized as scrap metal all over the world) Subaru Impreza all the time. Then again, my friend is an idiot.

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