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> Performance driving questions? Ask and I'll answer, Track/canyon/freeway/anything
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 22 2013, 11:58 AM


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Like a lot of you, I played IDAS/WMMT long before I ever started driving on track. I now set up cars and coach drivers, as well as occasionally drive shop cars for testing/feedback, and provide manufacturer testing/validation. While I'm not the fastest driver out there, I'm able to quickly and readily produce repeatable results, and provide reliable feedback.

Have questions? Ask away!
Vortrex
Posted: Oct 22 2013, 12:09 PM


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Is this the best way to drive a AE86: laugh.gif https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7GmuYbRypg

Kiroshino
Posted: Oct 22 2013, 12:19 PM


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Guess I'll ask a serious one.

My question has to do with steering: How do you manage the steering wheel through sharp corners?

The problem I have is that I casually steer with one hand, which has shown to have many disadvantages. Steering with two hands is fine, but there comes a point when the steering wheel needs to turn beyond what I'm physically capable of doing without letting one hand go.
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 22 2013, 02:15 PM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 1 hour, 55 minutes ago)
Guess I'll ask a serious one.

My question has to do with steering: How do you manage the steering wheel through sharp corners?

The problem I have is that I casually steer with one hand, which has shown to have many disadvantages. Steering with two hands is fine, but there comes a point when the steering wheel needs to turn beyond what I'm physically capable of doing without letting one hand go.

Always always two hands.

Why are you turning the wheel to the point that you need to go that far? What car and whats the steering rack ratio? The only time I'm turning that much is when I'm correcting/countersteering.
Kiroshino
Posted: Oct 22 2013, 02:28 PM


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Stock street car ('03 Civic) on the street. So, assume narrow lanes with greater than 90 degree corners.

For the record, not racing, just trying to get comfortable with the idea of steering with two hands.
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 22 2013, 03:17 PM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 48 minutes, 32 seconds ago)
Stock street car ('03 Civic) on the street. So, assume narrow lanes with greater than 90 degree corners.

For the record, not racing, just trying to get comfortable with the idea of steering with two hands.

What's the radius of the corners?

Going so far that you have to let go with one had is pretty unusual, unless the corners are Irohazaka tight (under 30 mph).

Even with really slow steering, you shouldn't be going past 180 degrees.

Are you holding at 10/2 or 9/3?
VitaVeritas
Posted: Oct 22 2013, 03:50 PM


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For a 1991 MR2 N/A with Tein coilovers/damper, what would be best to run (from 1 being softest, to 4 being the hardest settings) for autocross? It is my daily driver as well, so I am trying to find the best balance for the street as well. So like it would be able to drive to the autocross location, and then back home easily, without the need to adjust again.
The front are set to 1 on each end currently (tool needed to adjust), but the rear (which I don't need a tool to adjust) are set to 3 currently. In case this was relevant information.
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 22 2013, 03:53 PM


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QUOTE (VitaVeritas @ 3 minutes, 35 seconds ago)
For a 1991 MR2 N/A with Tein coilovers/damper, what would be best to run (from 1 being softest, to 4 being the hardest settings) for autocross? It is my daily driver as well, so I am trying to find the best balance for the street as well. So like it would be able to drive to the autocross location, and then back home easily, without the need to adjust again. 
The front are set to 1 on each end currently (tool needed to adjust), but the rear (which I don't need a tool to adjust) are set to 3 currently. In case this was relevant information.

What coilovers?

What are the spring rates?

What other mods on the car? (Sways, braces, tires, rims, etc.)

Without knowing that, the best I can do is "use the stiffest setting that isn't bouncy/harsh".

This post has been edited by psychoazn on Oct 22 2013, 03:54 PM
Kiroshino
Posted: Oct 22 2013, 06:40 PM


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QUOTE (psychoazn @ 3 hours, 22 minutes ago)
What's the radius of the corners?

Are you holding at 10/2 or 9/3?

On my way home, I realized that what I was thinking of was not what I was asking. XD

The question I was thinking of (but didn't come out right) is in regards to repositioning your hands on the steering wheel for a turn. My problem was that I had developed a habit of repositioning my hands during a turn, which made for very awkward turns. I realized on my way home that repositioning my hands prior to a turn made for a smoother turn: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/smooth-driving.htm#a

To answer your questions, though, I'm referring to something like a triangle corner - a really sharp corner that would usually result in hand shuffling. It's really hypothetical because I don't encounter too many of those, and they are usually intersections with traffic lights or stop signs. I position my hands at 9 and 3.
sideways
Posted: Oct 23 2013, 03:01 AM


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Part of me wants to chime in where I can, the other just wants to watch laugh.gif Awesome thread, I look forward to seeing where this goes smile.gif
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 23 2013, 11:21 AM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ Yesterday, 6:40 PM)
On my way home, I realized that what I was thinking of was not what I was asking. XD

The question I was thinking of (but didn't come out right) is in regards to repositioning your hands on the steering wheel for a turn. My problem was that I had developed a habit of repositioning my hands during a turn, which made for very awkward turns. I realized on my way home that repositioning my hands prior to a turn made for a smoother turn: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/smooth-driving.htm#a

To answer your questions, though, I'm referring to something like a triangle corner - a really sharp corner that would usually result in hand shuffling. It's really hypothetical because I don't encounter too many of those, and they are usually intersections with traffic lights or stop signs. I position my hands at 9 and 3.

Your steering rack is really slow, which is why you need to crank the wheel.

Once you go into a sportier car, you won't have the same problem.

You shouldn't ever be letting go of the steering wheel, although I admit I'm guilty of it when I'm catching the rear coming out...
Lonely_Driver
Posted: Oct 23 2013, 02:43 PM


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have you seen any other wagons on the track?
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psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 23 2013, 02:48 PM


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QUOTE (Lonely_Driver @ 4 minutes, 48 seconds ago)
have you seen any other wagons on the track?

Yup... WRX wagons, outbacks, volvos, CTSV, Magnums, everything...
APaul1
Posted: Oct 23 2013, 06:01 PM


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What is this best advice for a newbie to improve lap times and get to be a better driver?

Personally, I only been to 2 track events and 1 autox. I didn't really have the funds to go consistently (I only been working full time for 2 years, pay isn't great). The few times I've been to track events I was very disappointed at myself because I felt slow and knew I was nowhere near what the car can do. I forgot what I felt because those track events I went to was about 4 years ago but the more recent auto x event I didn't know what to focus on. First lap I went about 90% tires where breaking loose and I hitting cones. 2nd run I told myself I'm going to take it slow and get to know the track, turned out to be the fastest lap of the day. Other laps I would focus on one corner and mess up on others. Last lap of the day, I felt really confident about the lap I thought I could've beat my 2nd lap by a second or more but I fukked it up last corner and spun out.

Obviously practice makes perfect, but for a low budget enthusiast that only go to events couple times a year, what should his/her focus be to most efficiently make use of track time.

Also is alignment important before going to track, even just for fun? I know that you should make sure your car is mechanically sound and fluids top off with all the other stuff to do before going to a track day (stuff thats on the track day check list). One thing I never checked was the alignment of the car. that autox day in my s2k was disappointing, although the s2k out of the box should've been a fun drive. I felt like something was off. I didn't want to blame the tires because I remember having so much fun with my 240 with no name tires, even at the limit of grip they where offering. At the same time when I'm at the canyons going 70-80% it is a blast to drive and I don't feel disappointed at all. Maybe Its just because I realized how slow I was that day and my conscience looking for a scapegoat. The fact that I was timed that day and like 70% of the cars where running faster than me didn't help. Maybe the topic sentence of this paragraph shouldn't of been alignment but track psyche and what to do to overcome getting frustrated after having bad laps and how to just have fun even when putting up bad times.

Man my thoughts are so not collected. I'm not going to be tracking anytime soon but any insight would be cool, so I know what to look forward to.

edit.
Just reread my post. Holy run on sentences! Too lazy to correct.

This post has been edited by APaul1 on Oct 23 2013, 06:04 PM
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 23 2013, 11:11 PM


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QUOTE (APaul1 @ 5 hours, 10 minutes ago)
What is this best advice for a newbie to improve lap times and get to be a better driver?

Personally, I only been to 2 track events and 1 autox. I didn't really have the funds to go consistently (I only been working full time for 2 years, pay isn't great). The few times I've been to track events I was very disappointed at myself because I felt slow and knew I was nowhere near what the car can do. I forgot what I felt because those track events I went to was about 4 years ago but the more recent auto x event I didn't know what to focus on. First lap I went about 90% tires where breaking loose and I hitting cones. 2nd run I told myself I'm going to take it slow and get to know the track, turned out to be the fastest lap of the day. Other laps I would focus on one corner and mess up on others. Last lap of the day, I felt really confident about the lap I thought I could've beat my 2nd lap by a second or more but I fukked it up last corner and spun out.

Obviously practice makes perfect, but for a low budget enthusiast that only go to events couple times a year, what should his/her focus be to most efficiently make use of track time.

Also is alignment important before going to track, even just for fun? I know that you should make sure your car is mechanically sound and fluids top off with all the other stuff to do before going to a track day (stuff thats on the track day check list). One thing I never checked was the alignment of the car. that autox day in my s2k was disappointing, although the s2k out of the box should've been a fun drive. I felt like something was off. I didn't want to blame the tires because I remember having so much fun with my 240 with no name tires, even at the limit of grip they where offering. At the same time when I'm at the canyons going 70-80% it is a blast to drive and I don't feel disappointed at all. Maybe Its just because I realized how slow I was that day and my conscience looking for a scapegoat. The fact that I was timed that day and like 70% of the cars where running faster than me didn't help. Maybe the topic sentence of this paragraph shouldn't of been alignment but track psyche and what to do to overcome getting frustrated after having bad laps and how to just have fun even when putting up bad times.

Man my thoughts are so not collected. I'm not going to be tracking anytime soon but any insight would be cool, so I know what to look forward to.

edit.
Just reread my post. Holy run on sentences! Too lazy to correct.

Don't drive 100%. Focus on your driving, not your times. Clean up your driving, and the times will come naturally.

Get yourself an instructor. There are tons of people who will gladly volunteer their time. Alternatively, you can hire someone like me, but that's a much more expensive way, and chances are, if you run into me at the track and I have free time, I'll probably sit with you for a session and give you some tips as long as your car is safe (I've been in a LOT of wrecks with students... and always walked away due to proper safety systems, including a 130mph+ wreck).

Get a lot of instructors. Listen to all their collective feedback. Chances are, as a relative beginner, their feedback will all be similar. As you get faster and develop your own style, the feedback will start to change, as the instructors all have their own styles too.

Ride with as many people as you can. Seeing that a relatively mundane car can go fast will show you what can be done.

Oh, and the s2k is rather unforgiving. It'll punish driving errors harshly. It may be tough, but you'll come out a better driver than the EVO/STI guys in the long run.
Banken
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 12:29 AM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ Oct 22 2013, 12:19 PM)
Guess I'll ask a serious one.

My question has to do with steering: How do you manage the steering wheel through sharp corners?

The problem I have is that I casually steer with one hand, which has shown to have many disadvantages.  Steering with two hands is fine, but there comes a point when the steering wheel needs to turn beyond what I'm physically capable of doing without letting one hand go.

On a street car you have to switch from 9-and-3 to 7-and-2 or 10-and-4 before the turn because street cars are designed to be driven by women and have really slow steering ratios.

If your car has more than 2 turns from lock to lock, you're going to have to move your hands for normal street driving or very tight corners.

Most cars have about 3 turns lock to lock, so you're out of luck. If you have 2.5 like an Evo or a car with a modfied steering ratio. A formula car might have 1 turn lock to lock, but they don't have very much steering angle (they have huge turning radius)

It is possible to steer about 180 degrees by crossing your arms, but at real cornering speeds you will never be able to do that because of G's, and it's not a great idea either for safety reasons, especially if you have an airbag.


On a full-sized road course, especially with low grip tires, you can pretty go around most corners without moving your hands beforehand, but often there are one or two corners where you do, in which case have to move them before the corner. You will probably never need to move them more than say, 10:30-and-4:30.

QUOTE

For a 1991 MR2 N/A with Tein coilovers/damper, what would be best to run (from 1 being softest, to 4 being the hardest settings) for autocross? It is my daily driver as well, so I am trying to find the best balance for the street as well. So like it would be able to drive to the autocross location, and then back home easily, without the need to adjust again.
The front are set to 1 on each end currently (tool needed to adjust), but the rear (which I don't need a tool to adjust) are set to 3 currently. In case this was relevant information.


You don't need to adjust damper settings to drive to the track and back home. In fact you don't really need to adjust them at all. Also, damper settings will make almost zero difference in your times. They are primarily a matter of personal preference. Try turning them all the way up and then all the way down to see the difference. You would be surprised, because sometimes the softest setting ends up being the fastest. Don't assume that stiffer is better.

The REAL issues are your alignment, tire and tire sizes (not to mention wheel offsets, but that's another story), ride height and rake, spring rates and spring rate balances, and of course stabilizer bars. Alignment and spring rates make the biggest difference though.

Assuming your dampers aren't blown or weak, and your bushings bearings and joints are in good condition, and your tires are fresh (made within 2-3 years), and your brake balance is optimized (stock is usually almost perfect as long as you use the same pads on both ends). Of course there are literally a billion things that could go wrong on a car that could slow the time down. But most of them are either power or handling related.

For the record, a clutch-pack LSD will make more of a difference in handling than almost any other part (besides tires).

This post has been edited by Banken on Oct 24 2013, 01:06 AM
Mr. Shine
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 03:11 AM


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QUOTE (psychoazn @ 4 hours, 0 minutes ago)
Oh, and the s2k is rather unforgiving. It'll punish driving errors harshly. It may be tough, but you'll come out a better driver than the EVO/STI guys in the long run.

Incredibly unforgiving. Ask me how I know - and I was lucky it was a fairly low-speed tire wall collision tongue.gif

Particularly with an S2000 I would suggest not pushing towards your upper limit for this reason. The S2000's snap oversteer is fairly well documented, although many of the cases can also be put down to driver error.
sideways
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 03:17 AM


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QUOTE (psychoazn @ 4 hours, 5 minutes ago)
Oh, and the s2k is rather unforgiving....

If I may inquire, are you speaking with experience from an Ap1, Ap2, or both (or enough of both to happily say 'both', and not a I mostly drive one, but have driven the other once or twice, kind of deal ))?

Btw- Ive sent you a Pm

This post has been edited by sideways on Oct 24 2013, 03:18 AM
Kiroshino
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 07:28 AM


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QUOTE (Banken @ 6 hours, 58 minutes ago)
If your car has more than 2 turns from lock to lock, you're going to have to move your hands for normal street driving or very tight corners.

Most cars have about 3 turns lock to lock, so you're out of luck.

Is there a proper way to do that, or am I just better off one-handing tight corners for normal street driving?

The quick rack and pinion available for mk1 MR2's is advertised as 2.5 turns lock-to-lock.

This post has been edited by Kiroshino on Oct 24 2013, 07:30 AM
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 24 2013, 08:46 AM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 1 hour, 0 minutes ago)
Is there a proper way to do that, or am I just better off one-handing tight corners for normal street driving?

The quick rack and pinion available for mk1 MR2's is advertised as 2.5 turns lock-to-lock.


For street driving, do whatever is comfortable, but keep in mind that muscle memory will kick in when you're in a quick-decision scenario, such as the track or spirited driving elsewhere.

I do drive a lot of cars, and I've rarely needed to turn the steering wheel that much, except when I'm driving a van or truck, in which case, I do the "keep a palm on the steering and turn it" thing.

QUOTE (sideways @ 5 hours, 11 minutes ago)
If I may inquire, are you speaking with experience from an Ap1, Ap2, or both (or enough of both to happily say 'both', and not a I mostly drive one, but have driven the other once or twice, kind of deal ))?

Btw- Ive sent you a Pm


All of the above, stock and modded. The car is incredibly unforgiving, and I'd rank it one of the most difficult cars to drive.

QUOTE (Mr. Shine @ 5 hours, 16 minutes ago)
Incredibly unforgiving. Ask me how I know - and I was lucky it was a fairly low-speed tire wall collision tongue.gif

Particularly with an S2000 I would suggest not pushing towards your upper limit for this reason. The S2000's snap oversteer is fairly well documented, although many of the cases can also be put down to driver error.


The "snap oversteer" is mostly an internet myth. In almost every case, it can be traced to driver or setup error. A lot of enthusists blindly mod, without truly understanding what each modification does, and this is often the case with suspension components. THe post below is a perfect example.

QUOTE (Banken @ 7 hours, 59 minutes ago)
On a street car you have to switch from 9-and-3 to 7-and-2 or 10-and-4 before the turn because street cars are designed to be driven by women and have really slow steering ratios.

If your car has more than 2 turns from lock to lock, you're going to have to move your hands for normal street driving or very tight corners.

Most cars have about 3 turns lock to lock, so you're out of luck.  If you have 2.5 like an Evo or a car with a modfied steering ratio.  A formula car might have 1 turn lock to lock, but they don't have very much steering angle (they have huge turning radius)

It is possible to steer about 180 degrees by crossing your arms, but at real cornering speeds you will never be able to do that because of G's, and it's not a great idea either for safety reasons, especially if you have an airbag.


On a full-sized road course, especially with low grip tires, you can pretty go around most corners without moving your hands beforehand, but often there are one or two corners where you do, in which case have to move them before the corner.  You will probably never need to move them more than say, 10:30-and-4:30.You don't need to adjust damper settings to drive to the track and back home.  In fact you don't really need to adjust them at all.  Also, damper settings will make almost zero difference in your times.  They are primarily a matter of personal preference.  Try turning them all the way up and then all the way down to see the difference.  You would be surprised, because sometimes the softest setting ends up being the fastest.  Don't assume that stiffer is better.

The REAL issues are your alignment, tire and tire sizes (not to mention wheel offsets, but that's another story), ride height and rake, spring rates and spring rate balances, and of course stabilizer bars.  Alignment and spring rates make the biggest difference though.

Assuming your dampers aren't blown or weak, and your bushings bearings and joints are in good condition, and your tires are fresh (made within 2-3 years), and your brake balance is optimized (stock is usually almost perfect as long as you use the same pads on both ends).  Of course there are literally a billion things that could go wrong on a car that could slow the time down.  But most of them are either power or handling related.

For the record, a clutch-pack LSD will make more of a difference in handling than almost any other part (besides tires).


The number of turns lock to lock, and steering ratio, have a weak correlation at best. Evos have very slow steering. FRS/BRZ have very fast steering. Both cars are 2.5 locks, but the FRS/BRZ has a tight turning radius. Most formula cars have half a turn lock to lock, if that, and ultra fast steering ratios.

G forces will never prevent you from crossing your arms. I'd be shocked to see more than 1.5G in any street car, no matter the setup, unless you're at some extreme level that 99.99% of us will never see.

Reduced tire grip has nothing to do with steering ratio. You'll turn *slower*, but the amount of turning you do doesn't change.

Damper settings are ABSOLUTELY key to lap times, and is NOT a matter of preference. There is only ONE critical setting for any car, and anything other than that is wrong for the setup. If you are using dampers to adjust a car to your preference, then the base suspension setup is wrong to begin with. Dampers are used to control spring motion, not car balance/preference. If the softest setting is the fastest, then the damper is mismatched to the spring. You are correct in saying that assuming stiffer is better is wrong. However, I will add that 1 way adjustable dampers have a TINY window of critical damping, and are usually garbage. Funny how you say spring rates make the biggest difference; the dampers need to be matched to the springs.

In order of importance: Tire, spring/damper, swaybars, alignment. Ride height/rake are unrelated to the previous, except preventing excessive droop loss or bottoming out/scraping.

Isn't everything power and handling related? Unless it's driver related.

Most modern cars have a heavy rear brake bias for use with traction and stability control systems. That's why you stagger pads.

A clutch-type LSD is only important if you're struggling with wheel lift/spin. Or trying to drift.
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Posted: Oct 24 2013, 08:47 AM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 1 hour, 19 minutes ago)
The quick rack and pinion available for mk1 MR2's is advertised as 2.5 turns lock-to-lock.

The Evo was a bit under 2.5 stock, and I never had to move my hands if I didn't want to for comfort reasons.
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Mr. Shine
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 12:10 PM


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QUOTE (psychoazn @ 3 hours, 23 minutes ago)
The "snap oversteer" is mostly an internet myth. In almost every case, it can be traced to driver or setup error. A lot of enthusists blindly mod, without truly understanding what each modification does, and this is often the case with suspension components. THe post below is a perfect example.

Absolutely, hands down it is always almost entirely driver or set up error, point being though that as we agree, it's very unforgiving when it does occur, and the S2000 very much requires more precision and care to drive (IMO) than many other cars.
Kiroshino
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 01:10 PM


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QUOTE (Spaz @ 4 hours, 22 minutes ago)
The Evo was a bit under 2.5 stock, and I never had to move my hands if I didn't want to for comfort reasons.

Yeah, I've been shopping around for new cars. Even the Honda Fit is under 2.5 lock-to-lock stock. Did a quick search on the AW11 and it seems that the MR2 is around 3.25. Appears to be common for older cars. Don't know about my Civic, but I'm assuming it's above 3.

In my quick search, learned that when I said "shuffling hands", I meant "hand-over-hand".

Thanks for the wisdom guys. smile.gif

I've attributed much of my sliding around on wet pavement down to mainly driver error and bad tires.

After reading psychoazn's post, I'm going to need to do more reading on dampeners. Currently running TRD springs on my MR2 (162 lbs/in front, 280 lbs/in rear) with budget KYB GR2's, everything else stock.
psychoazn
  Posted: Oct 24 2013, 02:42 PM


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QUOTE (Kiroshino @ 1 hour, 32 minutes ago)
Yeah, I've been shopping around for new cars. Even the Honda Fit is under 2.5 lock-to-lock stock. Did a quick search on the AW11 and it seems that the MR2 is around 3.25. Appears to be common for older cars. Don't know about my Civic, but I'm assuming it's above 3.

In my quick search, learned that when I said "shuffling hands", I meant "hand-over-hand".

Thanks for the wisdom guys. smile.gif

I've attributed much of my sliding around on wet pavement down to mainly driver error and bad tires.

After reading psychoazn's post, I'm going to need to do more reading on dampeners. Currently running TRD springs on my MR2 (162 lbs/in front, 280 lbs/in rear) with budget KYB GR2's, everything else stock.

http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/Adjustable_Manual.pdf

90% will probably be mumbo jumbo, but keep reading it and studying it.

A lot of it is still black magic to me.
Spaz
Posted: Oct 24 2013, 05:36 PM


Just a guy towing a car across the country to chase a dream.
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QUOTE (psychoazn @ 2 hours, 53 minutes ago)
A lot of it is still black magic to me.

This. There's a reason I didn't touch the suspension on the Evo... Didn't want to break the balance that existed from the factory. It may not have had high peak grip, but it was reliable (in the scientific sense) and competent enough for a hobbyist car that saw mostly street use.

Anytime one thing on the suspension changes, it affects a bunch of other things. Basically, for any change that gets made, a bunch of others need also be made to retain a good handling balance. That's why I, until after the accident, was looking at picking up a 311RS Evo X, it's ready to go out of the box outside of the 3-way adjustable coilovers. But all that takes to fix is a call to JRZ and a minute of your time fiddling with adjustment knobs.

With that out of the question now I'll need to consult a few individuals on the setup of the future car.
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