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| Initial D World - Discussion Board / Forums > Technical Discussion > Limited Slip Differential discussion |
| Posted by: sileighty_00 Jan 14 2004, 09:16 PM |
| Just wondering what kind of LSD is used most for drifting. What are the advatages/disadvantages of each kind? |
| Posted by: VRr1FD Jan 14 2004, 09:32 PM |
| helical, or "torsen" (quaif brand also) are great for handling, but they don't lock the rear end. the rely on their "helical" gears to multiply the torque the "slip" wheel is putting down and put it to the "grip" wheel. if one wheel is putting down no torque at all then the drip wheel has no torque either, it can only multiply, and 0 x anything is 0. but because the torsen diff reacts instantly to torque transfer, it is much better than a viscous type diff and much smoother than a clutch type diff. the torsens weak point is what gives it it's strong point though. the many small gears around it have a tendancy to blow themselvs up on hard drag launches in hi power cars. and for drifting, when you often want a locked rear end to keep sliding, i think most will recomend the clutch type. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm |
| Posted by: sileighty_00 Jan 14 2004, 09:35 PM |
| The only problem that I can see with the clutch type is that it will wear out quicker with constant abuse. I wonder what most D1 cars have? Probably clutch since they most likely don't pay for the new parts and such. |
| Posted by: VRr1FD Jan 14 2004, 10:16 PM |
| alot of clutch type can be rebuild though. other than the wear out factor, their engagement is, of course, on/off. so for normall driving it's not quite as comfortable or quiet in some cases, and of course, for auto x it's also a bit of a compromise, but for drag and drift it'd be great. alot of clutch types can be set at assembly for what slip ammount they will lock at. and you can get them in 1, 1.5 or 2 way. though for street, strip and even drifting use you'd probably not want a 2 way (slip ratio locking no matter the engine load). |
| Posted by: sileighty_00 Jan 14 2004, 10:42 PM |
| Here is some good basic information that I found about the basic parts of any LSD Case This is the big cast piece to which the ring gear bolts. It is actually two parts, the major portion of the case and an end-cap to hold all the parts in. The end cap is held on by four countersunk Phillips-head machine screws. The inside of the case has four large grooves in it that run parallel to the axle centerline. The ring gear bolts go through the end-cap and the case and are threaded into the ring gear. Side Gears The side gears in the LSD are a bit different from regular side gears but they do the same thing. They have a splined hole in the middle that mates with the splined ends on the axles. They also have a "shoulder" on the back side (away from the teeth) that has six grooves or notches parallel to the axle centerline. The tabs on the Friction Disks and Spring Disks fit into these notches. Pressure Rings These are two large cast pieces that sit inside the case. They have four tab-type protrusions around the outside that fit into the grooves in the case. They also have v-shaped slots where the ends of the Pinion Shaft sit Pinion Shaft This is the pivot shaft for the pinion gears. The middle part of the Pinion Shaft is flat on two sides. The pinion gears sit on the round portion. It is different from a regular pinion shaft in that the ends have flat areas machined on them in a v-shape. These flats sit in corresponding notches in the Pressure Rings. Pinion Gears These do very much the same thing as regular pinion gears. They pivot on the pinion shaft and sit between the side gears. In a regular differential they are also referred to as "spider gears." Friction Disks These are round flat ring-like steel disks that go inside the case.The disks have 6 round tabs towards the inside that fit into the grooves in the back of the side gear. They come in several thicknesses, 1.75 mm, 1.85 mm. and 2.00 mm being the most common Friction Plates These look very much like the Friction Disks, except that they have four round tabs towards the outside. These tabs fit into the grooves inside the case. The plates come in the same thicknesses as the Friction Disks. Spring Disks and Spring Plates Some LSD units have these and some do not. They are like the Friction Disks and Friction Plates except that they are dished instead of flat. The technical name for this is a Belleville spring. purpose is to give the LSD a more progressive action "The Stack" This is how the plates and discs look when they are assembled onto the back side of the side gear. You can see how they alternate, how the tabs on the plates line up with the tabs on the pressure ring and how the tabs on the discs line up with the slots in the side gear Pics of each of these parts will be up as soon as I can get them to be |
| Posted by: zeo Feb 1 2004, 11:09 PM |
| D1 cars all use clutch type LSDs because they won't slip. All the drivers prefer it to all other forms of LSD. I forgot the specifics, was a long running post on Club4ag. I have a Kaaz 2 way LSD on my 86 and it's fine, but you will feel the clutches kicking in, even at low speed. Also gotta realize it puts stress on your driveline, so it will shorten the lifespan of those parts as well. Speed isn't free. |
| Posted by: Indecisive Feb 1 2004, 11:11 PM |
| well clutch type LSDs you don't have to wait for it to activate. with VLSD or Viscous you gotta wait for the fluid. Clutch type is all mechanical..but then you gotta spend more time and $$ maintaining it too. |
| Posted by: Joeyfeets Feb 11 2004, 11:04 PM |
| interesting.... i know my ride has a stock LSD. How can u tell if it needs rebuilding? Is there some better type of nissan LSD i can swap in? i never really thought about upgrading/modifying the LSD until yall mentioned this. Is there a lot of aftermarket LSD for diff applications? (other than 240's, i.e. 300's ) |
| Posted by: sileighty_00 Feb 12 2004, 01:45 AM |
| I know that NISMO makes an LSD for some cars, but bet on spending some major $$$ for that stuff. |
| Posted by: TireSlip Feb 12 2004, 11:30 AM | ||
its recommended if there no car movement and all wheel spin to apply the brakes, simulating the car's pushing off of the ground then the other wheel will multiply that |
| Posted by: Joeyfeets Feb 16 2004, 10:36 PM | ||
$$$$???? dam, forget it then. mayeb ill do a stock swap from anotehr Z. or get this one rebuilt. |
| Posted by: Neo Xian Wu Feb 17 2004, 01:40 PM |
| i would weigh the cost of the rebuild versus a new unit and labor. and also, the performance of the stock unit compared to aftermarket. |
| Posted by: VRr1FD Mar 22 2004, 03:46 PM | ||||
yep, i think that's in the manual of the new hummers too, since they use torsens. |
| Posted by: Neo Vash Mar 29 2004, 03:44 PM |
| Yeah plan on spending a good 800$ on a LSD. Thats how much a good one cost Kaaz, Nismo,... any brand. Kaaz works better than a Nismo though. Kaaz can take more abuse. No one said Drifting was cheap. |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 30 2004, 03:18 PM |
| Id rather get one outa a junk yard for a few hundred, they work just as good lol. |
| Posted by: Neo Vash Mar 30 2004, 03:30 PM |
| Yeah thats true gts, but then how long is it going to last? $800 is alot but well worth it. |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 30 2004, 07:48 PM |
| Yaaa, this post sucked |
| Posted by: Neo Vash Mar 30 2004, 08:01 PM |
| You lost me half way through thier with the hooker and racing seat and cheap hooker and good.... yeah |
| Posted by: Rayp Sep 8 2004, 05:19 PM | ||
My 86 had a "junk yard grade" LSD. It was worn. Still worked and did a better job than an open diff, but could not hold the full torque of the engine. Could not enjoy the full potential of the car. One advantage of having an FR is the rear differential isn't too difficult to service. LSD can be rebuild cheaply, and i'm sure it's simple enough to do it yourself. So spending the 800$ would be a one time expense, afterward it's probably as cheap getting it rebuild than finding another used LSD and having it installed. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 8 2004, 05:32 PM |
| Im bored, and since Rayp revived this- ill do a quick "lames" LSD guide. You got 3 basic LSDs to know. 1 way, 1.5 way, 2 way. When an lsd is "Activated" it applies equal power to both the inside and outside wheel. 1-way. Tihnk of this as a 1.0 (youll know why later) A 1-way lsd only "Activates" while it is accelerating. 1.5 way actives while accelerating and decelerating. But while decelerating, it only aaplies half the power to the inner wheel (thus the .5) A 2-way applies even power to the inside and outside wheels while both accelerating, and decelerating. |
| Posted by: Rayp Sep 8 2004, 06:40 PM | ||
Drifters use either the 1.5 or the 2 way ones. Personnaly i prefer the 2 way as it's just as easy to get the rear loose while accelerating as it is while slowing down. Though many drifter prefer 1.5 because easing the throttle cancel their drift so it's safer for them. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 8 2004, 07:21 PM |
| Profesional and high end drifter prefer the 2 way- it keeps the tires spining the same speed pretty much the whole time. "Amateurs" have a much easier time with the 1.5 way |
| Posted by: HorizontalMitsubishi Sep 8 2004, 08:05 PM |
| what kind of diff does the gts have on it stock? |
| Posted by: Toshi Sep 8 2004, 08:22 PM |
| drifters usual have adjustable diffs that are set between a 1.5 and 2 way lsd setting, depending on course they change the setting. I know all the silvias in the series use the NISMO GT-Pro its preety cool, adjustable. I want to get a kaaz adjustable 2 way. 2 way sucks driving on the street becase the lock is so shitty and you sorta always have to have the ass out good fro drift and drag not so good for autocross. I like the 1.5 way the best. best balance it can drift and it can be good fro grip driving |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 8 2004, 08:40 PM |
| The corolla Gts has a 1.5 way stock As for the adjustable lsd thing- meeeh, not really.. thats more of a race car thing then a drifter thing. A HUGE majority of the D1 drifters use 2-ways, with only a few using 1.5s |
| Posted by: AJS13 Sep 9 2004, 01:16 AM |
| Tho as pointed, adjustable would be best for street. |
| Posted by: case Sep 9 2004, 10:07 AM |
| 2.0-way clutch-type LSD's are the most common for drifting. |
| Posted by: sideways Sep 9 2004, 10:18 AM |
| Advantage to having adjustable or not- For a pro drifter a 2-way lsd always has the inner tire moving the same speed as the outer tire. no point in having it adjustable Added: Hey as a side though... arent adjsutable LSDs a bit more complicated then non adjustables anyways? When your pushing a car hard and sideways all the time- doesnt that mean harder and more complicated maitenence? |
| Posted by: case Sep 9 2004, 11:07 AM |
| Well, pretty much all mechanical LSD's are "adjustable" because you can change the gearing to be more or less sensitive. |
| Posted by: Neo Vash Sep 22 2004, 02:22 PM |
| Just for you information, if your Daily Driver is the car you drift dont buy a 2 way lsd. Just leave the stock lsd in thier or if it didnt come with lsd put the vlsd. heres your warning: 2 Way LSD WILL LOCK UP ON YOU WHEN YOUR ARENT GOING FAST ENOUGH AND YOU TURN FOR EXAMPLE: MAKING A TURN IN A PARKING LOT. IF you think this isnt true, well your a dumbass and I hope you get a 2way lsd and it locks up and you crash. |
| Posted by: Jabberwocky Oct 12 2004, 07:25 PM |
| I'm not a big fan of the clutch types because of the inconsistent nature. Clutch type wear out and as they wear out their performance changes, so you are constantly learning and adjusting your setup. With a mechanical, ie torsen, the way power is delivered to each wheel in very linear. It feels more predictable. Second, since a mechanical is usually based on gears, the way the LSD acts stays darn near the same until the day the LSD decides to break. I guess the disadvatage is that it will eat a couple of horsepower since it has all those heavy gears. It is not really adjustable unless you rebuild it. Drifters seem to prefer clutch types, I can't really tell why. Maybe it is because many of them can be tuned based on how you stack the plates. Mechanical Quaifes and Torsen are a bit on the pricy side too. All types of LSD see quite a bit on racing use. I think a mechanical or viscous is really the best if you don't want to rebuild the LSD all the time to keep it consistent. I prefer mechanical torque biasing units since they don't have many of the weakness that the others have. |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 19 2005, 11:23 AM |
The tighter you make the decceleration side, the more a car will understeer when you turn in (unless you make the inside rear lift). If you have both wheels going the same speed (like in a welded/spool diff) the result is massive understeer followed by snap oversteer (as the outside wheel lets go). Ever driven a gokart that couldnt lift the inside rear?  Similar rule applies for acceleration. Understeer followed by snap oversteer. Detroit lockers are fabulous for taking off, but hideous for turning. If you coast the diff is open, but as soon as you put positive torque into the diff (accelerate) it locks tight. Most clutch diffs are progressive (unlike d lockers and posidrives), with the diff lock building as the wheel speed difference increases. You can alter the final locking torque, and the diff angles (aka ramp angles). The ramp angles are the rate of torque applied vs wheelspeed difference. I've never heard of a drifter using a torque sensing differential. These are usually the reserve of cars that don't do sideways, like fwd's and lightweight, race biased, rwd's (caterhams). On a fwd they work fabulously well, giving you near perfect torque distribution without disturbing the cornering ability. Only downside is a slightly less sharp turn in (caused by braking torque being transferred through the diff). |
| Posted by: 180sxdrifter Feb 22 2005, 12:32 PM | ||
I have a Nismo 2-way Street Diff in my daily driver. I have no problems parking. Only an idiot drives 40mph on a parking lot. |
| Posted by: AJS13 Feb 23 2005, 10:32 AM | ||||
A mate of mine, with a Nismo 2-way in his 200SX doesnt have any problem with it locking around car parks, and its his daily driver. |
| Posted by: TruenoHachiroku Mar 1 2005, 05:41 PM |
| hmm not all gts have a stock LSD...-- im using a Cusco 2 way---the worst about lsd is when you drive on road its dangerous... braking in could be a pain because u need time to do that.... but when i shift 1st and rev my car around 6-7 k i can spin around easily... wheels spin together |
| Posted by: sideways Mar 1 2005, 06:16 PM |
| a 1 way or 1.5 way would do that as well. going to a .5 or 2 way just talks about how much lockign youll have while the dif is decelerating, either half lock on the .5 or a full lock on the 2way. 2-way can be a bit bad for daily driving since the wheels are always going the same speed pretty much, makes slow speed turning and parking a pain. When racing new commers to the 2 way can also complain about the "push" effect (understeer) the 2way will have at first because when braking the wheels are still going the same speed as well, youll need to be good at braking properly and have good throttle turning skills to make good use of a 2 way |
| Posted by: lee_integra May 20 2005, 12:28 AM |
| Will an LSD make drifting easier in an FF? Cause my integra RS doens't even have an LSD, yet I have been drifting for months, am I doing serious damage to my car? |
| Posted by: Rayp May 20 2005, 07:57 AM | ||
I can answer that one. Having an LSD in an FF is quite helpful. It even the wear of the front tyres. It make cornering a bit easier. It makes launching a bit faster and easier. But as far as sliding is involved, i found it makes 180 degree e-brake turns a lot easier and faster, it also make "recovery" faster. But unlike an FR, it won't make you slide more (since power at the wheels make little difference), but makes starting and ending it easier (as the front wheels grip in a more uniform fashion). |
| Posted by: But she looked 18 officer Nov 26 2005, 12:02 PM | ||
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe a few of you guys are confused on the way a 2way LSD works... It isn't locked like a locker, spool, or welded differential. A 2-way LSD (or any LSD for that matter) will only "lock" if the torque load on the drive train, exceeds the load at the wheels. If that doesnt happen, the diff is "open". added: I'd also be quite interested in reading a advanced write up about how a 2way LSD effects the handling characteristics of a car compared to a 1way and 1.5way and other diff types.(drifting applications need not apply). I'm having a hell of a time finding anything about them other then how it is they work. I hear Carrol Smith's book "Drive to Win" has an really good article about it. If any of you happen to have this book would it be too much to ask if you could scan it? |
| Posted by: AJS13 Nov 26 2005, 12:36 PM | ||
Yes your very right Nick, hence the name "LIMTED SLIP". |
| Posted by: sideways Nov 26 2005, 02:40 PM |
pointing out one of my posts from 8 months ago  . Anyways depends what kind of (if any) friction modifer youve got back there. Try telling that to a few of my "jdm tyte" silvia buddies out here, who use whatever they can to get those things to lock as quickly and tightly as possible (face it, why else would you have that back there?). Tire noise when theyre trying to park is far from un-common. |
| Posted by: But she looked 18 officer Nov 26 2005, 07:10 PM |
| well then yeah they have some odd ball setup. Hell, I'll argue that the fact that it is a 2way LSD is irrelivent to their tire noise in a parking lot issue UNLESS they are ONLY deaccelerating while they are turning, rather then before then turn into where they are going(the normal/safe way of driving)... Otherwise its the acceleration side of the diff that is locking their tires. |
| Posted by: alfa75 Nov 15 2006, 07:49 AM |
| Hmm, lots of generalizations here and not many specifiecs. I think part of the reason this thread is confusing to read is that nobody is mentioning the % of lockup in their examples. (the JDM tyte guys who screech and hop around the parking lot might have welded diffs with 100% lock, or they might have 2 ways with really high percentages of lock such as 75%). I am not a diff expert. In fact I know that I am fairly ignorant in this area. I have driven a 240sx on a track that had a welded diff, so I know what that is like... My car has a stock 2 way that was set at 25% lock from the factory. That diff is now 20 years old and I dont know what percentage of lock remains. I will be rebuilding the stock diff with new friction plates. The factory recomends 47% lock for cars that will be track driven (useing 2 plates stacked for 50%, but then broken in for the 3% loss). I think i will go in this direction even though my car will still be street driven. What lock percentages do the people here run? Does anyone advise against 50% lock for a street driven vehicle? |
| Posted by: HorizontalMitsubishi Nov 15 2006, 01:27 PM | ||
i see people with %100 lock on the street, you just have to be really carefull in the rain. oh btw those posts are form a year+ ago. |
| Posted by: ae86gt-apex Apr 27 2007, 04:45 AM |
| To bring up a 6 month old thread..... Does the JDM GT-Apex AE86 have the same diff as a USDM GT-S? |
| Posted by: Devil240Z Jan 28 2008, 09:22 PM |
| Welded diff for the win! seriously though, no joke. you will drift the crap out of everything. but i guess the pros use 2 way diffs. as I am new here i feel that i must give my little bits of wisdom at every opportunity: you cant drift a car that you are afraid to crash. when you have the power to make your fears come true, they will! if you are not afraid then you will still crash eventually but its cool cause you dont care. |
| Posted by: atlantian Mar 20 2008, 03:45 PM | ||
well... wielded diffs if you are drifting(since your two rear wheels will always be spinning at the same rate), but i would get a high quality LSD for racing... |
| Posted by: NismoTime Mar 20 2008, 06:49 PM |
| Welded diff gets to your tranny though, Lots of extra punishment on that. If you have an auto stay away from Welded. |
| Posted by: atlantian Mar 20 2008, 08:12 PM |
| ah... the downsides of a torque converter... |
| Posted by: Rudy Jul 11 2009, 03:44 AM |
| D.Sport did an LSD review for their June issue, not too sure how accurate it is. |
| Posted by: Toshi Jul 12 2009, 02:52 AM |
| all about welded on the cheap. 2 way for competition |
| Posted by: Yoshida Seiji Jul 12 2009, 02:46 PM |
| Welded is lame. If you are welding a diff to drift, then quit being such a cheap f**k. If you are too cheap to buy a diff, you seriously don't need to drift. 'Cause it's not a poor man's sport at all. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Jul 13 2009, 11:11 AM |
| mpg comptetition is a poor man's sport... try it out |
| Posted by: sideways Jul 14 2009, 12:23 AM | ||
But you sure as hell can have some god damn good fun on a budget. Its not always about competition. |
| Posted by: Yoshida Seiji Jul 14 2009, 04:29 AM |
| It does more harm than good. It's just gonna f**k your transmission sooner or later and then you are paying more money. Just fork out the cash, but a real diff. Done. |
| Posted by: Mr. Shine Jul 14 2009, 12:50 PM | ||
Alternative option is to buy a factory viscous and shim it up nice and tight, works a treat. |
| Posted by: sideways Jul 16 2009, 09:59 PM | ||
Does more harm than good? Says who? You? I can vouch for a small handfull of people who have used lincoln lockers successfully, in drifting, 1/4 mile, and even racing. Mind you I totaly agree, a proper lsd is night and day difference in comparision; But you can still do surprisingly good on a welded diff. Some people just dont care, its one thing to drop 20 bucks into a shit car and go have some fun, its another to go toss in half a grand or more for something remotely decent. Just do what suits you best and fits within your budget and measure if the sacrafice is worth it to you. As for the transmission thing, while im far from saying it cant happen- But in my experiences, Ive never seen a transmission fail because of a welded diff. Ive known a handfull of people whove used them for their own budget drift cars (and 2 people who raced theirs), and heavily considered it myself for my z as a hold my over until i can afford a proper lsd. Free < Hundreds of dollars. That and ive got a spare diff, various parts, and dont mind using a wrench. |
| Posted by: Yoshida Seiji Jul 17 2009, 04:47 AM |
| Extra stress on the drive train, it's not good for the transmission. Also have you even seen a welded diff break? Shit ain't pretty, especially if you're just cruising down the highway or something. |
| Posted by: backalleyracer Jul 17 2009, 07:25 AM |
| i can also say, from watching countless friends who have welded their diff's it is worth it for the shear fun of it |
| Posted by: RDvil Jan 25 2010, 10:26 AM | ||
Totally agree with this one. They're suprisingly good when set up right - grips like a plated, smoothly like a torsen. Don't know how much power/abuse they can take though. And as for the issue of open differential's vulnerability, most of them only have one set of pinion gears - in case of a wheelspin, all the power goes to those two small gears. That doesn't sound good, especially if you know how small they really are. LSD:s on the other hand have more metal transferring the power - ZF plate-style diff for instance has two sets of pinions, plus of course the plates which eventually pick up. So drifting with an open diff is not gonna last - even welding's a better option(if done right). |
| Posted by: oneroundflare May 4 2010, 02:12 AM |
welded diff all the way!! cheap and just have fun.  sideways is true on that comment. Just do what suits you best and fits within your budget and measure if the sacrafice is worth it to you. |
| Posted by: Alex May 20 2010, 07:12 PM | ||
Found a fun 50's Chevy dealership instructional video explaining how a differential gear works.
I really learned from this video. Hopefully others will too. Also makes me want to go build my own demo model! |
| Posted by: Möbius May 21 2010, 06:34 AM |
That's one of my favorite instructional videos.  |
| Posted by: stormfox May 21 2010, 08:20 AM |
| Nice video~ suprisingly how simple they are able to make it sound! |
| Posted by: Sensation! May 21 2010, 09:20 PM |
| sideways showed me that vid about 5-6 months ago. it was a great way to learn how the open diff works. the real thing was about 10 minutes long, though most of it was the motorcycle show. vid is circa 1939 or so |
| Posted by: Alex May 21 2010, 10:09 PM | ||
Yeah, I opted for the trimmed down version that focuses on the educational bits. That's a good bit older than I was guessing! |
| Posted by: Sensation! May 22 2010, 02:48 AM | ||
actually i was wrong, it says its from 1937 lol
I LOVED the bit about the driveshaft haha |
| Posted by: impreza0109 May 23 2010, 12:50 AM |
| i really learned much from the two vids. thanks... =) |
| Posted by: GokuFc Feb 15 2011, 09:58 AM |
| i am gona share some liks for you because im too bored to write them down Lsd 1-1.5-2.0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential Torsen lsd(best for drift=in my opinion) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen and wthey are also the VISCO or Synchro every company calls them as they like thats basicaly an lsd with disk which has some scratch on them and for oil they have some kind of a silikon witch after it hits from the diferent movement of the two it beames one but usualy they are using them on an awd |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 15 2011, 09:43 PM |
| You are just repeating, badly, things that have already been covered in more detail by people with actual experience. Have you drifted much with a torsen? While it is very possible, most/all people tend to prefer either a clutch-pack style diff or a viscous unit, as they are very easy to shim for preload, and still have full transmission with a wheel in the air. I haven't heard of any one using a torsen diff to drift. I personally think torsen/quaife differentials are brilliant things, i have one in my 205 and will probably put one in my mr2 (which currently has as viscous). Not because they're any good at drifting, but because they maximise the available grip in a wide range of situations and have instantaneous operation (because they don't operate on wheelspeed difference). Fitted to a fwd, they actually "push" the car around the turn when the throttle is applied. It's an odd feeling, but affords surprising exit grip. On very rough surfaces i wouldn't have one in a fwd as the torque steer can become quite fierce (which is why clutch lsds are still very popular in fwd rally cars, despite their hideous shortcomings), but i don't tend drive on that kind of surface too much. Viscous LSD's are alright. They don't tend to wear out, and they provide locking (eventually). If my car had originally been specced with a clutch pack diff, there wouldn't be any clutch left by now (and a rebuild is a huge pita because of these transaxles!), but the viscous diff still works as well as a new one. |
| Posted by: GokuFc Feb 15 2011, 11:39 PM | ||
well you got a point there i havent try a torsen i have only try an lsd and a normal diferential but i think the torsen is more efected for drift!visco is slow at making that and lsd has to be reapaired after a while, while torsen do that and for repair it just ask you for some oil to replace! and i have a question why did you feet a torsen on a fwd thats dangerous i guess? Did you feet it in front? my theory is torsen and lsd for drift visco for a awd but not a awd subaru or evo or something like those to visco must be using on something for example the bmw x5 series or the lada niva! i mean torsen can do the work in an instand while lsd needs to slide some torgue from one wheel to another to work! but for example lancia integrale had 2 or 3 diferentials i dont rememeber exactly i am gona checked that out later and tell you what the car had on back those days! and its the same think subaru and evo has this days maybe not the exact diferential types but they share the same theory! Edit: sory if i repeat anything i didnt read all pages before i posted thats why i have add the links in case someone want them! |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 16 2011, 05:24 AM |
| Not sure on the Subaru, but the Evo uses a viscous center diff, helical front, and clutch-type rear. |
| Posted by: MattW Feb 16 2011, 08:57 AM | ||
There's different kinds of Limited Slip Diffs, you know. |
| Posted by: GokuFc Feb 16 2011, 10:44 PM | ||
yes i know,but i dont know good english to explain you! |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 16 2011, 11:14 PM |
| Where you said lsd you meant clutch pack lsd, both of you. Viscous diffs are used for drifting all the time by lower-budget drivers (who have cars that come with them). You just double the preload shim thickness and the diff is pretty much welded (we had three people swinging on a bar and it wouldn't turn!). It's not pretty, but it is effective and sturdy! It's also much less likely to explode than an actual welded diff. They're also becoming increasingly popular for their longevity and dynamic adjustability. Throw a hydraulic pump onto the casing and you can have a diff with the driveability of an open diff and the locking of a posidrive (incidentally). BMW uses this succesfully in the back end of m3's, as does jag. Haldex famously uses this principle for their centre differentials. I also believe that the evo and post '06 subaru's DCCD use hydraulic/viscous diffs in the centre. Ferrari's e-diff and mitsubishi's AYC are hydraulically actuated clutch-pack diffs. And again, torsen's aren't the best idea for drifting. Not only are they a bit useless if the inside wheel lifts when used on a bouncy-bouncy drift car, but because they are entirely gear-driven they do have the potential to explode when met with a large amount of differential torque (as you tend to find on wide-tyred, 600hp turbocharged cars). Quaife had a bit of a problem with this in the past. |
| Posted by: GokuFc Feb 17 2011, 06:41 AM |
| Torsen ------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvocsePIg4M ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Le6Mvqez8 why do you think the torsen isn't qualified for drift? since i have never use one i want to know why! but also i want to hear it from someone who has use one! |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 17 2011, 07:01 AM | ||
Torsen diffs only work if both wheels are on the ground (or if they're being braked), as gear-driven differentials are torque multipliers (and you can't get anything from 0!). If the rear inside skips a little due to the very stiff suspension of a drift car it will momentarily lose all drive and rapidly reaquire it. This shock loading, from a very torque-rich engine, can potentially obliterate a torsen diff (where any other LSD would just slip). Even if it doesn't kill the differential, it can upset the car at times when a clutch-diffed car would just be locked up and predictable. |
| Posted by: sideways Feb 17 2011, 10:43 PM |
| You know, ive -never- actually seen a torsen blow in the sense your previous post would lead one to imagine. Another nifty thing to think about for torsens is you CAN preload them- So in the event you DO have the inside wheel start spinning youll still transfer power to the outside wheel. That said I do agree, torsen is NOT nearly as good for drifting as a good ol clutch lsd is. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 22 2011, 06:43 PM | ||||
I don't really drift (I've tried it a few times), but from my understanding, viscous LSDs are definitely not the best for drifting. I remember on one of the DVDs with Keichi Tsuchiya (maybe Drift Bible), it showed two very similar cars (probably AE86s) drifting around the same circle repeatedly, though one had a viscous LSD and the other had a mechanical LSD, and the mechanical LSD was definitely drifting better.
Actually, only the non-ACD Evos (2003-2004) had a viscous center LSD, while the Evos with ACD (basically 2005+) have hydraulic multi-plate clutches, which I'm pretty sure doesn't utilize viscous fluids.... though if I'm wrong, let me know. |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 22 2011, 06:56 PM | ||||
You are indeed correct sir. |
| Posted by: DeeezNuuuts83 Feb 22 2011, 07:07 PM |
| ^ Also, only the 2004 Evo RS and 2005+ Evos have the front helical LSD. The 2003-2004 non-RS Evos all had open front differentials. |
| Posted by: Cubits Feb 22 2011, 08:12 PM | ||
Yes, but if you SHIM a viscous diff you effectively create a "safe to use" welded diff, which makes them perfect for budget drifting. I've done this countless times for my friend's cars, and they've used them competitively. The part of drift bible was an mx-5 driving in big circles where the ae86 was just cutting doughnuts. It was a very generalised take on viscous diffs. |
| Posted by: Spaz Feb 22 2011, 09:25 PM | ||
Also correct. I was simply generalizing for simplicity's sake. The thought of picking up and installing a Wavetrac in the front end has often crossed my mind. |
| Posted by: Jhaqastar Apr 19 2013, 10:58 AM |
| +1 on the Welded ^.^ For funness on the cheap, nothing beats welded! The thing is as predictable as the sun is rising in the morning since you're always sure that both wheels are locked .I heard from a drifter buddy that the welded is really nice to practice on and drive solo in. But in tandems and competition, there's really an edge when you use a tuned clutch type. And welded is also good for those "urges only" drifting. I'm a time attack kind of guy so a welded is really crap with all its turn in understeer inducing characteristics for me. So when I feel the urge to go a little sideways once in a while, I slap my welded on, put some regular diff oil you get from gas stations, the get some angle for the next week or two :3. When the itch is gone, put the old diff back :3. But yeah... For a toy car, welded is fine... But as a sort of daily/competition car, the welded will be very annoying! |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 20 2013, 04:33 PM |
| Agreed. I've been debating on getting my diff welded, as I don't have a grand to throw down on a LSD. But the understeer properties have turned me off of the idea. That and I don't drift. Does kinda suck going round a hairpin, nailing the gas, and having the inside tire go nuts but nothing really happen. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 20 2013, 05:10 PM |
| If you're not drifting you're better off with a shimmed stock LSD than a welded diff... If you're going to track or autocross or race seriously an LSD is an absolute must. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 20 2013, 07:02 PM |
| I have an open diff... can't afford an LSD so its open or welded... No plans for anything competitive, just a toy for spirited driving in the hills. |
| Posted by: sideways Apr 20 2013, 08:34 PM | ||
As far as racing goes if your spinning a tire, welded is going to be faster than an open dif. Its just a matter of learning how to use the thing without slipping and sliding everywhere Have you considered using an obx helical lsd? They can be picked up for a <300 bucks left and right. I picked mine up for my Z for just over 200 bucks shipped brand new. If youre interested or curious about them, just lemme know id be glad to share what I know about them. Imo one of the best bang for the buck diffs you can purchase. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 20 2013, 10:37 PM |
| Had no idea they had an option for that cheap! All I've seen are 600-1200$. Still don't have the money right now but in the future I'd definitely be interested! |
| Posted by: Spaz Apr 21 2013, 01:20 PM |
| It's OBX, the redheaded step child of ebay. They tend to be stupid cheap, but most of the products I've seen personally haven't had any serious quality flaws. At $300 and with sideways' blessing, I'd say you're game on. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 21 2013, 01:39 PM |
| Haha, OBX. My short shifter is OBX, but with a little fabrication, its very nice. I dunno about something as serious as a differential, though, but if you guys say its decent, I'll check into it. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 21 2013, 03:45 PM |
| Generally speaking, when a product that isn't clothing or perfume costs 1/4th what the original it's knocking off costs, there's something wrong with it. Or it is built by children in Indonesia. Or it is made out of recycled pots. Helical diffs require extremely strong construction because of the way they work. If you can't afford to invest $1000 in one of the most important handling/power (yes, both handling and power) upgrades, perhaps you shouldn't be upgrading your car to begin with. Otherwise you're better off buying a used stock Z31 LSD since I believe it's a clutch pack (the best kind of racing diff, although it requires more maintenance), rebuilding it, and then shimming it for more initial torque. A locked diff is ok for drag racing and drifting, but on the street it will be a pain. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 21 2013, 05:50 PM |
| Its only really upgraded because it was cheaper than the OE replacement parts. And yeah thats why I don't have it welded already. An NA Z can't really get enough power to be dangerous with an open diff. Like I said, its just a toy beater for the hills around here. I only paid 500$ for it. Its just annoying to be coming out of a turn and not be able to accelerate because the inside wheel spins. I don't need to be competitive, and I don't like being told that because I'm poor, I shouldn't tinker with my car. |
| Posted by: s12drifter Apr 21 2013, 07:18 PM |
| currently have a VLSD in my Z31 dont go vlsd it's... bi-polar. you can shim them but that only last so long. looking to go S15 helical. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 21 2013, 10:33 PM |
| You shouldn't modify your car if you're poor. You should only be maintaining it. If you happen to choose to repair it with upgraded parts, well... But you should never buy bottom-basement upgrade parts, especially ones that cost less than the stock parts. Because doing it cheap ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS costs more than doing it right. Never, ever buy a viscous LSD. You might as well not have an LSD at all. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 21 2013, 11:14 PM |
| Thats a very childish thing to say. |
| Posted by: Banken Apr 22 2013, 12:12 AM | ||
Actually, it's pretty damn good advice. Playing with cars is for people who have steady jobs. If you don't have a steady job you would be better off saving your money. |
| Posted by: Tygur Apr 22 2013, 12:26 AM |
| Who said I didn't have a steady job? We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I have a different philosophy on life and lots of experience that says otherwise. Besides, this topic is about LSDs, not berating people. Lets get back on topic. |
| Posted by: tappedby_sway Jul 26 2016, 04:11 PM | ||
Without getting too technical - most grassroots drifters drift on welded diffs because they're cheap and easy to come by. Your tires are ALWAYS locked and it gets the job done. Disadvantage, if they are shit welds, they'll probably break at some point and you'll be throwing one-wheel wonder drifts. Daily driving a welded isn't exactly ideal, considering every slow turn you make will have your rear end turning heads (not in a good way). Also, trying to drive that shit in the rain is sketch as fuck...for obvious reasons...you'll drift errrraaaawhuuurrrr, but it's probably not your intention. General consensus for welded diffs... unless you're just tracking your car, I wouldn't recommend driving a daily drift car on a welded. If you can throw down a thousand bucks or so, I'd recommend getting a 2-way diff. It works like a welded (but obviously it's not welded) and you won't die driving that bitch in the rain or making awful sounds when trying to make slow turns (skurt skurt skurt skurt) I personally drive on a 1.5 way differential (which is better for autocross, but as a DD and track application, I've not had any problems and have been on the same rear end for 4 years...daily driving, traveling to and from drift events, drifting etc). The 1.5 locks under acceleration and only half the time under decel. There's also VLSD - the diff that runs off viscous fluid and it's evil. Just...don't even. Like I said, without going into crazy detail, that's really it with diffs. |