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> Sub vs Dub: The Eternal Debate, Split from Random Thoughts
Rudy
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:04 PM


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Yosuke
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:13 PM


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I am probably going to regret everything, but it is elitist garbage :v. Because the mindset of localizations = INSTABUTCHERED is also stupid.

I actually prefer a lot of dubs over the original. Space Dandy and for an older example, Big O, the latter of which is because Japanese Roger Smith is all kinds of dull. Also the setting is basically as unJapanese as you can get so a lot of the voices just -fit- better from a visual standpoint. Hell, I watched a SEA English dub of Emma - A Victorian Romance and, I honestly liked it more because shockingly most of the people could pull off the accent for the era.

Honestly, any viewing method that leads to a person needing to stop for whatever reason is bad regardless. Whether it being a TL note or just a jarring cut :v
Tessou
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:15 PM


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Big O II was dull either way. The writers didn't know where they were going.

I'M ONE OF THE TOMATOES.
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APX
  Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:29 PM


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Jebus, I couldn't get into big o for some reason, it was a filler for me when it was on Cartoon Network.
Tessou
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:32 PM


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The plot was great until they tried getting too philosophical with it. I liked it when it was Japanese Batman.
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  Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:34 PM


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I think the only show id love to come back, better yet, finish, is Samurai Jack. sad.gif I really loved it.
Yosuke
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:37 PM


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Given how Gendy probably lost all will to do cartoons after Symbiotic Titan, you're just gonna have to be content with Jack's continued comic book adventures.
Tessou
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:38 PM


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I'd go further back and kick WB in the pants to revive Batman TAS and Batman Beyond. Both were cut off at rather inopportune points despite being brilliant.
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kyonpalm
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:48 PM


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I know my argument is unpopular, so I'll define it more clearly before addressing this.

Anime is Japanese animation. The original script for the stories is typically in Japanese. The original dub is typically in Japanese. It's done by actors that the production house for the series hired and deemed most suitable for the roles. Dubs take translated scripts (now no longer in their original language) and take further liberties with the dialogue to make accommodations for lip-syncing, and sometimes even localization (which can blatantly disregard the original script's intent). The actors voicing these roles are different and not chosen by the production house (read: the people who CREATED the series) but rather by the licensing company in whatever particular country. This is, by its very own nature, bastardizing the media. You're no longer listening to whatever show you're supposedly watching. This is the auditory equivalent of replacing rice cakes with burgers on screen simply because it's easier for an American audience to consume. Subs being better than dubs has nothing to do with opinions (although you can go off on a million tangents involving opinions, which I keep seeing here). It has everything to do with the simple objective fact that the best way to consume any media is in its original form (with some exceptions).

QUOTE (Tessou @ 1 minute, 21 seconds ago)
I've seen [Cowboy Bebop] both ways, and thought the dub track was the superior way to experience it. The original Japanese voices just aren't that good. They don't lend to the atmosphere of the show.

Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad also got a massive upgrade with actual English-speaking people doing the songs. The flow between dialog and singing was better, as there wasn't that jarring break between fluent Japanese and then hack job Engrish singing.

These are opinions.

QUOTE (Rudy @ 1 minute, 15 seconds ago)
So what you're essentially claiming is that you'd rather see no localized anime than some.

Got it.

Your reading comprehension is really something to behold. I never said anything about what I want to see more of or less of. I don't care whether dubs exist or not. I'm only saying that they have no reason to exist and are an objectively inferior deviation from an original work of art.

QUOTE (Yosuke @ 1 minute, 53 seconds ago)
... it is elitist garbage :v. Because the mindset of localizations = INSTABUTCHERED is also stupid.

No, as I explained above, localization does actually exactly mean "instabutchered" by its own nature.

QUOTE (Yosuke @ 1 minute, 53 seconds ago)
I actually prefer a lot of dubs over the original. Space Dandy and for an older example, Big O, the latter of which is because Japanese Roger Smith is all kinds of dull.

Also opinions.

QUOTE (Yosuke @ 1 minute, 53 seconds ago)
Also the setting is basically as unJapanese as you can get so a lot of the voices just -fit- better from a visual standpoint. Hell, I watched a SEA English dub of Emma - A Victorian Romance and, I honestly liked it more because shockingly most of the people could pull off the accent for the era.

This still doesn't matter, but does make me consider one thing - I think you could have an argument for a dub being a valid alternative if the creator(s) of the original work acknowledge it as a more authentic way of experiencing their work. For instance, if Chiaki Konaka said the English dub of The Big O was actually the definitive way to enjoy the series, you could then say that the English dub is superior to the Japanese original. And yes, as unfortunate as it may seem, this does mean, for instance, that George Lucas' director's cuts of the original Star Wars films are more canon than the originals if he so chooses to accept them as such, because whether someone likes them or not is simply his/her opinion.

QUOTE (Yosuke @ 1 minute, 53 seconds ago)
Honestly, any viewing method that leads to a person needing to stop for whatever reason is bad regardless. Whether it being a TL note or just a jarring cut :v

Having watched anime for most of my life, I've never once found having to stop to read a TL note (largely a thing of the past, I'll mention) an issue. The "but reading is haaarrrd" argument is so worn out, it's irritating to read.
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  Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:51 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ 13 minutes, 12 seconds ago)
I'd go further back and kick WB in the pants to revive Batman TAS and Batman Beyond. Both were cut off at rather inopportune points despite being brilliant.

God yes, this times a billion.

Batman Beyond would fit well in this era, but who knows!
kyonpalm
Posted: Jan 26 2015, 11:56 PM


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QUOTE (Tessou @ 1 minute, 19 seconds ago)
As for the dub sub stuff... opinions, opinions everywhere. Already said it many times. I cannot convince you, you cannot convince me. I'm moving on.

I explained why it's not a matter of opinions, but sure, that's fine too.
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Rudy
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 12:01 AM


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Tessou
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 12:01 AM


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No, you're not. You're disregarding anybody's argument by saying that what they say is simply opinion because it's not factual. Are dubs better? Are subs better? There's no fact there. We can dive into semantics of why dubbing is altering the media and so it cannot be taken as the "true" version, but that has nothing to do with enjoying it unless it's become an obsession.

I like em both. The end. Nobody can be wrong.
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kyonpalm
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 12:03 AM


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QUOTE (Rudy @ 1 minute, 27 seconds ago)
... the point I'm trying to get across isn't the goodness (or lack thereof) of dubbed anime, it's its relevance to popular culture. If the licensing companies didn't produce a show in the audience's native tongue, then anime as a whole would NOT have caught on and/or become the staple it is today.

I'm done arguing with you on this subject. You can either accept it or continue to denounce it, in spite of its cultural relevance.

Of course it's plenty relevant to popular culture. I'll also say for the third time that it's not about that - it's about relevance to the source material itself.
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Yosuke
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 12:17 AM


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I knew I would regret it, and will probably not continue on after this, because you are also "arguing" from an opinion that "It's japanese and should thus stay that way forever!", the ultimate form of elitist bullshit in this reclusive fandom. If your "Facts" had more meat to them beyond "I dislike whitewashing" or "Somehow all dubs/localizations completely change creator intent" then sure, I'd have maybe considered it, but alas.

I didn't even say it's because "reading is hard", the enjoyment of media should be seamless, regardless of audio. Some people simply want to see what's going on without needing to have a second thought on something. Unless you want to get mad at some replacing an animated 2ch post going "wwww" with "lololol"

The only reason I use Big O as an example because it's also the only case of something getting a second season purely because of the dub. Yes, all CN did was chuck money at the studio, but did dubbing the show change anything? not really. The dialogue is largely the same, at best maybe some Japanese saying gets replaced with a more convenient one. There's not even food existent to be crudely edited out, and the blood is still all there.

Not once have I preached something being superior or being invalid. People enjoy things, how people enjoy them shouldn't affect you.
Hannah
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 08:56 AM


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QUOTE (kyonpalm @ 9 hours, 54 minutes ago)
They "have a place" in the American market because - and this is the problem with having to answer to your point because it ends up coming across as elitist opinionated garbage - people don't generally care too much about quality in the media they consume. Yeah, I said it.

So, you think you can speak on behalf of all the kids and teens who watched Toonami in the early 00s?
You think that they didn't care how Goku sounded on TV when it first aired, that they weren't criticizing dubs and subs and comparing it to the illegally-gained fansubs they bought at the mall prior OR post? What about Robotech? Sailor Moon? Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw star? Or Saint Seiya for that matter?
Or is it just a rarity that all the kids in my school who actually admitted to watching "japanimation" [as it was called back in my day [lol].] would take that into consideration?
Hell, I wouldn't have been familiar with voicechasers.com website alongside Napster and Kazaa [again, back in my day]?



Seriously, I think you and Rudy should have ended this fight before it even started. You two sound like 2 pugs snorting and snuffing and yapping at each other; it's funny at first, but gets annoying real quick.

seriously, you two sound like a bunch of retards; fighting over who is more retarded.



And for the record, I don't give a fuck about subs or dubs. As long as it's not garbage like "Bonjour Sweet Patisserie" or "Cute boys High school earth defense club", it could be dubbed in German with Spanish subtitles. No Fucks Given.

This post has been edited by Hannah on Jan 27 2015, 09:07 AM
Nomake Wan
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 11:06 AM


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Kyonpalm you just out-weaboo'd WRX Demon. I would prove it with numbers but I'm on my phone and the mobile theme doesn't allow multi-quote. Stay tuned.

The short of my response to the whole sub vs dub thing is that I agree with Tessou, Rudy and Yosuke though.

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This post has been edited by Nomake Wan on Jan 27 2015, 11:06 AM
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kyonpalm
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 11:20 AM


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QUOTE (Hannah @ 2 hours, 25 minutes ago)
seriously, you two sound like a bunch of retards; fighting over who is more retarded.

Funny you say that, because this is the least-retarded argument I've ever had with him.

QUOTE (Nomake Wan @ 14 minutes, 14 seconds ago)
Kyonpalm you just out-weaboo'd WRX Demon.

>implying this is about being a weeaboo
I made a point of explaining that any media is best consumed in the form its creator(s) intended - which is typically (in the case of anime) its original language (which happens to be Japanese). It has literally nothing to do with being a weeaboo. I even brought up Lucas' director's cuts as an example.

But yeah, nah, I'm a raging Japanophile just because I care about consuming my media, regardless of origin, in its purest form. Got me pinned. Got any more ebin buzzwords you want to throw out there?

This post has been edited by kyonpalm on Jan 27 2015, 11:27 AM
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GoP-Demon
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 12:56 PM


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For me it's just whatever I see/hear first. I don't think most people like to randomly change so if they hear dub first its ok... if they see sub first its ok...
Rudy
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 01:28 PM


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Yosuke
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 01:29 PM


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I guess no adaptations/most media should exist, since you could pretty mmuch extend the goalpost to a retarded degree. I mean anime/cartoons/movies are just butchered manga/books/comics which in turn are probably butchered legends of days of yore, which in turn are butchered stories passed down from generation.

If you wanna be purist, sure, go ahead, but shockingly even creators are moving on to try and be worldly. Unless you want to invalidate translations because that moves away from the source since language is funny like that.

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Rudy
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 01:36 PM


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Nomake Wan
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 02:36 PM


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QUOTE (kyonpalm @ 3 hours, 15 minutes ago)
I made a point of explaining that any media is best consumed in the form its creator(s) intended - which is typically (in the case of anime) its original language (which happens to be Japanese). It has literally nothing to do with being a weeaboo. I even brought up Lucas' director's cuts as an example. But yeah, nah, I'm a raging Japanophile just because I care about consuming my media, regardless of origin, in its purest form. Got me pinned.

I'm finally back home and have some time before work, so let's begin the breakdown. In fact, lemme just go ahead and switch from Anzu no Uta to BRE∀K DOWN! because DDR gets me pumped and BeForU is amazing. Ahh....there we go. Now where's my fedora...

In any event, let's begin with this statement right here, shall we?

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
There is literally no reason for any dub to exist.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but while you may not like dubs and may not agree with their existence, there is 'literally' a reason for them to exist. Your statement is patently false. Dubs exist to increase accessibility to content. You may not personally enjoy watching a dub or may wave a flag proclaiming that any Anime not in Japanese isn't 'real' or is 'bad', but that opinion does not change the fact that the dubbed market does exist for a reason. By making this singular statement you have already begun to roll down Weeb Avenue.

Now, later on in a response to Rudy you then quickly backpedal a teensie bit and move your goalpost, correcting your statement so that rather than the massively broad generalization it was originally it's now 'dubs serve no purpose [to the original media]'. Moving the goalpost does not a coherent argument make. It simply proves that attempting to have logical discourse with you is going to be, in your words, a 'good time'. But hey, I'm all about Happy Days, so why the hell not. Let's continue.

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
If you'd like to have a point against mine, you can use a show that you actually watched dubbed and explain why you preferred said dub.

I will start by pointing out that this statement here is once again altering your original argument from 'dubs have no reason to exist' to 'Defend your personal preference'. These two things have nothing whatsoever in common, so I will not attempt to defend a preference as some sort of counter-argument to your point that dubs have no reason to exist. My opionion about the quality of one dub or another will not change the fact that dubs do have a reason to exist, not to mention even if I do defend my enjoyment of one dub or another you can immediately once more pull out the 'anecdotal evidence' card and invalidate it. It's a circular argument.

But once again, I'm a raging masochist, so I'll even answer the question you asked Tessou! I prefer to watch Dragonball Z in English, specifically the dub that FUNimation began in the middle of the Freeza Saga and continued all the way to the present. I did not for the most part enjoy the original dub (though it had its funny moments) nor do I enjoy the new dub voices used for Kai and the latest batch of video games. I enjoyed this particular dub because it conveyed very well the emotion and characterizations of the cast and, since this was a fighting Anime, allowed me to become absorbed in what was going on. On top of that, all of my friends who were into Dragonball Z grew up on the same dub, so we were all quite content with it.

I also watched the original Japanese (as for a time most of the movies were not available in English), and having sampled both I still personally prefer the dub to the original. The jury is still out on whether I prefer the original music or the Bruce Faulconer score, but thankfully my DVD collection lets me watch either language with either music track. Thanks, FUNi.

I can even give an example of a show where I am on the fence about preference: Outlaw Star. I absolutely love the English dub--they did a brilliant job of it. The characters are all perfectly personified in English, with Aisha being the screechy annoying catgirl, Suzuka the cool, calm, mature woman, Jim the kid-acting-older-than-his-age, Gene the kid-in-adult-clothes... the list goes on. When I'm introducing the show to others I'll often go with the dub since it's more accessible for many and I've no complaints about its quality.

That being said...the original version was brilliant too. There are a few jokes that didn't quite translate perfectly into English (though the dub did a great job of coming up with new ones that held a similar place, such as 'Death Rob'/'Deaf Rob' in Episode 1), not to mention my favorite voice actress of all time bar-none is Aisha. Yuuko Miyamura is love. So if you asked me what my favorite was, I'd probably go 'ehhhhhhhh...' and tilt my head a few times in confusion. If you asked if I enjoyed the dub though, that would be a resounding 'hell yes'.

Now let's return to your argument for a moment and remind those playing along at home what's at stake. After all, there sure were a lot of words up there.

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
Dubs may make it more marketable because a lot of people don't care about licensing companies localizing shows...

Whoops. That sounds like you just admitted that dubs have a reason to exist!

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
...but this has nothing to do with whether dubs actually improve the quality of any show.

Oh, whoops. I forgot, you moved your goalpost. Well, carry on then.

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
Anime is Japanese animation...

Here comes the WRX Demon. Japan counter for the post I quoted just now: 4. Now, on the other hand you didn't try to tell us that TL NOTE: RAMEN MEANS JAPANESE NOODLES but it certainly felt that way to read. That is, however simply my opinion and has no bearing on the core of the discussion. I just thought it was only fair to elaborate upon my earlier WRX Demon comment.

QUOTE (kyonpalm)
No, as I explained above, localization does actually exactly mean "instabutchered" by its own nature...

...For instance, if Chiaki Konaka said the English dub of The Big O was actually the definitive way to enjoy the series, you could then say that the English dub is superior to the Japanese original.

Once more I will reiterate that this has nothing whatsoever to do with your original argument that 'dubs serve no purpose', and that all but I have managed to fall into your trap and miss the fact that you've moved the goalpost since your original completely senseless statement. As a fun point, however, I will point out that there have been dubs in which the original creator found the dub to be 'worthy'. Examples include Metal Gear Solid, El-Hazard: The Magnificent World, and every Hayao Miyazaki Ghibli film ever.

"Well, those are only..."

Stop there. The point is not the ability to rattle off hundreds of titles. The point is that all that is required to stop your argument dead in its tracks is to provide one example to the contrary. I have provided three, which is more if you actually bother to list out all the Miyazaki films.

That should about cover it. If there's anything I missed, then by all means let's discuss it. Otherwise, can we please return to opinions about fun/good dubs and stop this nonsense about whether they have a 'purpose' or not? I'll even start.

QUOTE (SgtXDNX @ Yesterday, 4:01 PM)
Is that anything like Shira-ishi? laugh.gif

Yes, that's exactly what I mean by a horrendous American accent. Kenshin's dub was exactly as cancerous as that bit in Mirai Nikki. Not to mention neither Sean Connery nor John St John was voicing Deus, so there was no proper replacement for Norio Wakamoto.

This post has been edited by Nomake Wan on Jan 27 2015, 02:36 PM
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Tessou
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 02:51 PM


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Fun fact: Cowboy Bebop's creator also said he thinks the dub is superior to the original language. Who could really be any cooler as Spike than Steve Blum?
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Rudy
Posted: Jan 27 2015, 07:06 PM


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